New FX/Old Show

Triple F said:

Oh you’re a bad bastard for bringing that up. :thumbsup:
(Remember Scottish, I swear a lot, It’s actually a sign of endearment, not that I'm proposing or anything ;-)

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Not a problem. I have some Southerners in my family, so I'm acquainted with the idea of affectionate cursing. ("Yankee," for instance, is an insult, while "Damn Yankee" is a compliment, and "Son of a bitch!" is frequently used interchangeably with "You did a much better job than was anticipated!")

Triple F said:

Well if your talking about unused abilities seeing the Starfury using it’s thrust vectoring baffles correctly would have been nice. Though a bit disorientating at first.

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Oooh! I'd never heard of that one! Nice to see that the site is back up and running, too. <G>

You know, on the subject of stuff that didn't get done, I know the guy who designed the bulk of the Omegas wanted the engines to be hinged to overcome the gyroscopic effect of the carousel section. They shot him down on that. Several of my more engineering-oriented friends have griped about that over the years: "How could it maneuver, it couldn't turn without stopping the rotation and turning, and then starting the rotation up again."

Of course a small, dense, rapidly counter-rotating flywheel inside, say, that huge engine section would easily solve that, and would be far less vulnerable than a huge exposed gimbaled system. So on that one, I'm kind of glad it worked out the way it did...

I’m not an engineer, and using google is a bit of a cheat.

The approach as far as B5 was concerned was to pay a bit more than lip service to the idea of realistic physics in some (but not all areas). Technology limits at the time where a big factor but so was the realisation that to follow it religiously would limit design choices, and if they went the full hog it would have taken 3 times as long and drawn folks away from the story too much.

Kinda related. The Centauri and Narn didn’t have artificial gravity either. Though a decision on it was never really reached. If you look at the scene with the bombing of Narn you’ll see Londo’s hands holding onto a railing of sorts. (the sites not fully up yet so can’t point at the quote that mentions it – if you think back, there’s no scenes showing folks walking about on/in either races capital ships)

Triple F said:

I’m not an engineer, and using google is a bit of a cheat.

The approach as far as B5 was concerned was to pay a bit more than lip service to the idea of realistic physics in some (but not all areas). Technology limits at the time where a big factor but so was the realisation that to follow it religiously would limit design choices, and if they went the full hog it would have taken 3 times as long and drawn folks away from the story too much.

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I totally get that, and I don't hold any of it against them. If the physics in the show aren't exactly the physics in the real world, well, hey, they tried really hard. That's more than anyone else ever did. The attempt alone is worth my undying respect. Most of the stuff they got wrong can easily be handwaved away.

Triple F said:

Kinda related. The Centauri and Narn didn’t have artificial gravity either. Though a decision on it was never really reached. If you look at the scene with the bombing of Narn you’ll see Londo’s hands holding onto a railing of sorts. (the sites not fully up yet so can’t point at the quote that mentions it – if you think back, there’s no scenes showing folks walking about on/in either races capital ships)

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I knew the Narn didn't. It was pretty obvious the Narn were technologically inferior to humans. I didn't know that about the Centauri. I could have sworn Sheridan said that their artificial gravity allowed their fighters to maneuver much more violently than the Starfuries could, but maybe I'm misremembering that.

It’s completely possible that he did say that. As Tim Earls pointed out “Joe didn't concern himself too much about tech or specs.” And that can be seen in things like the ever increasing number of rooms, passages and FIGHTER BAY that was added to the white star for instance (Which came to a head when Tim tried to give it a new length). Or the sudden appearance of Quantum space in the Lost Tales to sell a joke.

I know jms replies to fan questions sound like he put thought into things but the truth is much of the minutia was made up on the spot. Remembering that interactions with the fans is not in real time – he could always pick what questions to reply to and had time to formulate that reply. Here’s an example of what I mean.

The Liandra fires energy bolts rather than Beams.
jms’s reply

Not a big enough ship with a big enough power source.

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http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-1647

Doesn’t make sense really, if you follow such things. The Liandra can open jump points and the much smaller fighter fires beams.

The real reason was much more interesting.

The other vision wanted her to be more dynamic, aggressive, her movements more like martial arts. That's the idea that won out in the end, and that's part of the reason the Minbari beams got replaced with the energy bullets. Personally I would have preferred if the production had stuck with the traditional Minbari weapons, but it was thought the image of beams shooting from her hands during these more violent movements would be confusing to the viewers.

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http://www.themadgoner.com/B5/B5ScrollsWhite.htm#Screen1_06_2



But admitting to that would have shown the production was being partly controlled by tv execs, and at the time he didn’t want that to be known. As a producer his motivations behind giving certain replies are not always obvious. Remembering that he’s a tv producer is always a handy thing.

“Look, how about we actually *see* the thing? I think it may be one of the best things B5 we've ever done. WB had NO NOTES on the thing. SFC had ONE note, to make one word (entil'zha) a bit louder because it's kind of a plot point. Both places referred to it as stunning and beautiful and maybe our best work to date.”

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http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16435

Clearly not the case. But he gave a few dodgy replies surrounding lotr in general, the motivations behind a reply like this are anyone’s guess (I can make a few ; ) but it’s also less than factually accurate.
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17655



And I’ve just realised I’m going into a light rant mode. Basically, when you start talking, listening or reading the comments of others who worked on the show, you realise that having access to more than one viewpoint is a good thing, in so many ways.

I think that the "production company" referred to in regards to budget issues on Rangers is Babylonian Productions, i.e. Doug Netter, not WB. Any notes that came down about the budget to the production team were likely from Doug, who more often handled the business side of things for the show.

It’s possible. (the quotes from Chris Wren not Paul). But it wasn’t the impression I got. Production company could mean anything.

He talks about how

The Minbari ‘God Room’ (seen near the start of the show) was another idea that was EXTREMELY difficult to sell to the network execs who were insistent that the audience would not understand why two people were floating in space - despite the concept having already been clearly established in the original series!!

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It soon became clear this single prop/set would be more difficult and time consuming to design and implement than many of the full standing sets in the show. But the concept was also an extremely difficult sell at the time, not only to the network but some of the artists and crew as well.

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The gist was that there did seem to be issues between jms & some of the crew and some folks (including network execs) who thought the viewers wouldn’t ‘get’ various things – possibly they were unfamiliar with the original show!? Bugger knows.

Could also wonder why the production was so far along before the cost of the weapon pod became an issue. As Chris was saying “The gun pod went through a lot of conceptual changes, some creative and some forced by budget (sometimes right on set).” Right on set implies there may have been a planning problem, I guess they were missing the likes of John Copeland or even George Johnsen at that point.

[edit]

You got me curious about the reference to the production company.

According to the IMDB There was three

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280453/companycredits

Babylonian Productions
Legendary Films inc.
The Sci-Fi Channel

Triple F said:

It’s completely possible that he did say that. As Tim Earls pointed out “Joe didn't concern himself too much about tech or specs.” And that can be seen in things like the ever increasing number of rooms, passages and FIGHTER BAY that was added to the white star for instance (Which came to a head when Tim tried to give it a new length). Or the sudden appearance of Quantum space in the Lost Tales to sell a joke.

[,,,]And I’ve just realised I’m going into a light rant mode. Basically, when you start talking, listening or reading the comments of others who worked on the show, you realise that having access to more than one viewpoint is a good thing, in so many ways.

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Nah, I've caught some of these myself over the years. His early assertion that the Centauri are named that because one of our early starships (!) first encountered them in the as-yet-undiscovered Centauri Nebula. Or the decision several years in that B5 was in the Epsilon Eridani system, despite that making no sense whatsoever. Or the random changes in the scale of the conflict, from galactic to something that would fit inside Larry Niven's Known Space, and back to Galactic again.

I've always been rather fascinated by the fairly obvious sutures in the story as well, which he's always claimed don't exist...up until he published his PTEN memo about the original storyline.

I don't really hold any of this against him. He was up against some pretty serious competition in those days, and one of his selling points was that he was telling a *Story* as opposed to "Just a bunch of stuff that happened" like Trek. He needed to maintain the appearance of assured control, and obviously couldn't let on that he was just making a good deal of the crap up as he went along.

Added to which, he actually *Was* pretty available to the fans, and willing to call a turd a turd (Infection, etc).

But the captain doesn't operate every part of the ship, so obviously there were contributions from a lot more people who have been hidden beneath the shadow of the Great Maker. Sad, really. I like JMS. I don't like seeing him put out there as a kind of dimestore knockoff of a talentless hack/glory hog like Roddenberry.

Triple F said:

According to the IMDB There was three

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0280453/companycredits

Babylonian Productions
Legendary Films inc.
The Sci-Fi Channel

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I'm assuming it was mostly the latter, both because they're notoriously screwwy to work with, and also the reference to "Network Execs"

Republibot 3.0 said:

I've always been rather fascinated by the fairly obvious sutures in the story as well, which he's always claimed don't exist...up until he published his PTEN memo about the original storyline.

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The story seems to hold up quite well to me. Really one can match a lot of the 10-page outline to the story, and see all the good stuff that was added and improved upon as well. I should also point out again because for some reason this is often forgotten that Joe said his stories don't match his outlines, and that the details are fluid:

jms said:

In a bit over two decades of professional writing, I have *never* written an outline that survived contact with the script, or the novel. It sorta gets me into the story, and from there on I have to be open to adapting to what the story presents

[in a different post:]

Basically, I like being *surprised*. And I think, in general, that readers do as well. At no time do I diverge from where I want to go; the spine never alters. But the details are absolutely fluid.

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Republibot 3.0 said:

He needed to maintain the appearance of assured control, and obviously couldn't let on that he was just making a good deal of the crap up as he went along.

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He wouldn't have cared about losing his notes in Blackpool if he was just making it up as he went, and after seeing the detail of his notecards that he wrote after that for the fifth season, it's pretty safe to say he works a hell of a lot of it out before he writes, just that he also changes some of the ideas when he gets to the scripts. (Example: Episode 512 notecards are split into "Franklin" and "Psi" cards. The Franklin plot was used pretty much intact in 508 and the Psi plot which has a shorter description that is basically described as "Sheridan has to call in Bester" was used in both 510 and 512. There's also a note that "Lyta turns away from [Byron's group]" which wasn't used. So the episode idea ended up being split across three different episodes with a lot of other details added and changed.)

I agree the story does hold up very well in fact. As a completed product. And is viewed just as a final standalone story.

I (by pure luck) purchased the original pilot movie, and only later saw the identically packaged TNT special edition. Some of the changes on it are obviously for story telling purposes and recut for better pacing around the advertising breaks. But some of them are really quite sneaky. He retrospectively changed things to help support the idea that the Babylon 5 story was planned out in advance. It was, but not to that level of detail. Although you could say he just revisited past events to bring them in line with what eventually developed. . . . . But why bother to do that?

The thing about Kosh recognising Sinclair as Valen when they first meet (a dubbed in addition to the special TNT version). Or the explanation about why you see a hand being extended to Sinclair (again dubbed in, with the addition of some special fx).

(You do know that this whole idea of first ones, etc was a rather late addition which was worked on as the series progressed – organic tech was someone else’s idea, etc.)

I know it sounds otherwise, and I can’t stress this enough, I don’t have any kind of negative issue with jms doing that.

I dunno if funny is the right word, but I do find it definitely interesting how folks who have never seen the original quote those (especially the Kosh – Sinclair – Valen thing) as evidence of how everything (apart from Bobby Ewing) appeared in front of jms during that shower back in the 80’s.

He wouldn't have cared about losing his notes in Blackpool if he was just making it up as he went, and after seeing the detail of his notecards that he wrote after that for the fifth season, it's pretty safe to say he works a hell of a lot of it out before he writes, just that he also changes some of the ideas when he gets to the scripts.

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I view that flexibility as one of his true strengths. I find the reluctance on the part of some folks to acknowledge that “when he gets to the scripts” is really another way of saying, when he is presented with new ideas from various department heads during production meetings.

(Department heads which were missing from LoTR and TLT)

His readiness to accept those ideas to make his story better is another strength, but is something (for whatever reason) many folks don’t appear to know, or don’t think are worth mentioning when discussing various aspects of the show.

That's one of the things I found unfortunate as a newbie.

JoeD80 said:

The story seems to hold up quite well to me. Really one can match a lot of the 10-page outline to the story, and see all the good stuff that was added and improved upon as well. I should also point out again because for some reason this is often forgotten that Joe said his stories don't match his outlines, and that the details are fluid:

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I never said it didn't. The story is fine and it does, in broad terms, follow his outline. The things that got dropped - Sinclair fishing, etc - were generally best dispensed with, though there's a few things I would have liked to see. Don't mistake me, I'm not complaining about the overall story, and I'm sure Joe managed to do most of what he'd set out to. All I'm saying is that there were a lot of unanticipated hairpin turns en rout to his ultimate destination.

JoeD80 said:

He wouldn't have cared about losing his notes in Blackpool if he was just making it up as he went, and after seeing the detail of his notecards that he wrote after that for the fifth season, it's pretty safe to say he works a hell of a lot of it out before he writes, just that he also changes some of the ideas when he gets to the scripts. (Example: Episode 512 notecards are split into "Franklin" and "Psi" cards. The Franklin plot was used pretty much intact in 508 and the Psi plot which has a shorter description that is basically described as "Sheridan has to call in Bester" was used in both 510 and 512. There's also a note that "Lyta turns away from [Byron's group]" which wasn't used. So the episode idea ended up being split across three different episodes with a lot of other details added and changed.)

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Ok, I phrased that badly. Let me put it another way: Did B5 exist before he created it? No. So he made crap up. Did he invent the Shadows and the Vorlons? Yes. So he made crap up. Did he have to make a lot of cast changes he would rather not have had to? Yes. So he made crap up to account for 'em. Everything creative anyone has ever done is "Making crap up."

Creating is a process that involves lots of feedback. You create, you see what works and what doesn't, you change the plan, you move on, add stuff, keep what works, get rid of what doesn't, on and on until you're done. I used the phrase "Making crap up" initially as a deliberate contrast to "Assured control." Both involve a lot of creativity and on-the-fly decisions, and FWIW, I can point to some very impressive stuff that was pretty much slapped together on the spur of the moment, so it's not inherently bad.

It does, however, look very unprofessional, even if it's not. Hence one who wishes to be taken seriously must maintain an air of assured control. Which is why I contrasted the two.

JMS' genius is in how well he was able to adapt the story he wanted to the realities he got. 220 episodes boiled down to 110, and generally all the better for it. The presence of sutures isn't intended - by me, anyway - as an insult, I'm just interested in the construction of the story as a whole.

Triple F said:

I know it sounds otherwise, and I can’t stress this enough, I don’t have any kind of negative issue with jms doing that.

I dunno if funny is the right word, but I do find it definitely interesting how folks who have never seen the original quote those (especially the Kosh – Sinclair – Valen thing) as evidence of how everything (apart from Bobby Ewing) appeared in front of jms during that shower back in the 80’s.

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Having once been a fundamentalist, I'm well aware that there's a certain kind of person who views any kind of critical look at the thing they like as a personal attack. Doesn't matter what the thing is: Christianity, Star Trek, Politics, Babylon 5, Environmentalism, Music, whatever. There's a "True Believer" mentality that is rather tautological. "This is true because the thing itself says it's true." Thus if you ask questions, you're implying a lack of faith, and a lack of faith implies everyone *with* faith is a fool, even if the question is pretty trivial and of no threat to anyone.

I actually *believe* in Jesus, but you would not believe the kinds of attacks I've sat through just because I've asked questions like "Why does evolution contradict the Bible, exactly? I don't really get that one" or "Why the heck is 3rd John in the Bible, anyway?" LIkewise, I've had to suffer terrible arguments with born again Trekies who insist on the genius of Roddenberry, despite lots and lots and lots of evidence to the contrary. I've gotten in random arguments with people who love the new Galactica, and openly condemn the original show without ever having seen it, all because that's just the party line: the original show sucked, don't watch it.

I love B5, it's my 2nd favorite SF show of all time (After The Prisoner), but if you say stuff like "there's a gear-shift at the end of season 2 that suggests a significant change of direction in the show" then people assume you must be against them.

It's frustrating.

Republibot 3.0 said:

Did he have to make a lot of cast changes he would rather not have had to? Yes.

...

I used the phrase "Making crap up" initially as a deliberate contrast to "Assured control."

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I still don't follow what control you think Joe didn't have. Sure there would be some things like when PTEN wanted his Japanese fighter pilot idea replaced by "Babylon 5's Han Solo", but he did control that by making sure that character (Keffer) got killed. As far as I am aware, the only main cast changes he has ever said weren't his or a mutual decision past the pilot were when Julie Caitlin Brown left after season one and when Claudia Christian left after season four.

Republibot 3.0 said:

JMS' genius is in how well he was able to adapt the story he wanted to the realities he got. 220 episodes boiled down to 110, and generally all the better for it. The presence of sutures isn't intended - by me, anyway - as an insult, I'm just interested in the construction of the story as a whole.

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I don't agree with the premise that the Babylon 5 and Babylon Prime shows were collapsed so much. The plot about building the new Alliance seems to have been present in the sequel from the initial outline up to the treatment for "Babylon 5: Rangers" and even up to the new season five notes written after that. The outline mentions Sinclair & Delenn's son being the center of it, and the season five notes involve Sheridan & Delenn's son returning from the future and dissenting against their ruling of the Alliance. The Shadows' defeat may have been moved from the sequel to the first show once Sheridan became Captain, but that doesn't mean that all of the sequel ideas were transposed.

JoeD80 said:

I still don't follow what control you think Joe didn't have. Sure there would be some things like when PTEN wanted his Japanese fighter pilot idea replaced by "Babylon 5's Han Solo", but he did control that by making sure that character (Keffer) got killed. As far as I am aware, the only main cast changes he has ever said weren't his or a mutual decision past the pilot were when Julie Caitlin Brown left after season one and when Claudia Christian left after season four.

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How about this: Joe wanted a ten year deal encompassing two series: B5 and B-Prime. He didn't get that. That's a HUGE thing to have outside of your control. He compressed the story into just B5. The departure of O'Hare was mutual in that they said "Leave," and he said "Ok," but he'd made himself quite unwelcome by then. In the final season, production time was reduced by a day per episode, 22 over the course of the season, which was the equivalent of three episodes production time, total, and it totally shows. He didn't want that, did he?

Television production is an evil demon bitch goddess at the best of times, and *no one* ever has total control of their series. Ever. No matter how good the vision, the producers and creators are always scrambling like crazy to put out fires, and failing occasionally, and making compromises, and coming up with stuff on the fly. It's the nature of the beast.

JoeD80 said:

I don't agree with the premise that the Babylon 5 and Babylon Prime shows were collapsed so much. The plot about building the new Alliance seems to have been present in the sequel from the initial outline up to the treatment for "Babylon 5: Rangers" and even up to the new season five notes written after that. The outline mentions Sinclair & Delenn's son being the center of it, and the season five notes involve Sheridan & Delenn's son returning from the future and dissenting against their ruling of the Alliance. The Shadows' defeat may have been moved from the sequel to the first show once Sheridan became Captain, but that doesn't mean that all of the sequel ideas were transposed.

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Meaning no offence, you're wrong.

Republibot 3.0 said:

Meaning no offence, you're wrong.

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There are three paragraphs on the empire building plot involving Sinclair and Delenn's son for the sequel in the 10-page outline, some quoted here:

Sinclair Outline said:

Soon the son becomes a revered symbol, a religious symbol to to others...focus of the prophecy, the boy-man whose birth signals a time when various species would come together, making a new Golden Age.
...
Their son takes his places as head of a new alliance, promising peace for the first time. He is able to command political and religious leaders in a consortium of power.

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The empire building plot is referenced in the rangers treatment:

Rangers Treatment said:

It is a time of decision. Will the next hundred years be ruled by those who would prey on the weak? Or will there be a return of order, a forging of new alliances, the coming of law and civilization?

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The plot for Sheridan and Delenn's son is in the season five notes:

season five arc notes said:

Someone will come to them claiming to be Sheridan and Delenn's son, who has come back from the future to try and stop them from making a terrible mistake...how would you react if you knew your parents were Hitlers, and you had the capacity to stop them?
...
we reveal that this person is telling the absolute truth, a truth that we have one chance to prevent from becoming a reality.

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That plot is also in the season five notecards:

season five notecards said:

Sees Sheridan - he is dangerous. Learns all he can.
....
David continues to speak out, begins to get a following.
...
Goes through [temporal distortion field] - wait - remember - danger, for you, all of you.

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And Joe said

jms said:

The structure as laid out here would leave the end of season five very open-ended, which I could only allow if we were indeed doing a sequel series that involved empire building, a series that would then be in a position to resolve those threads.

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So in which part am I wrong?

JoeD80 said:

So in which part am I wrong?

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Your fundamental argument is flawed. You are insisting that JMS had total and absolute control of the entire series from day one, and that any departures from that control were insignificant. This is clearly not the case, as Triple F and anyone who's had any dealings with television can attest.

I pointed out that B5/BP got truncated down to one series, which is a massive, huge thing that indicates he didn't have near as much control as you presume, and your counter-argument is "Well, he was gonna' do some of that stuff in Rangers." Fine, maybe he was, but that doesn't change the fact that he *didn't* get to do it in B5, though by your admission he wanted to. Ergo, lack of control.

Republibot 3.0 said:

Your fundamental argument is flawed. You are insisting that JMS had total and absolute control of the entire series from day one, and that any departures from that control were insignificant. This is clearly not the case, as Triple F and anyone who's had any dealings with television can attest.

I pointed out that B5/BP got truncated down to one series, which is a massive, huge thing that indicates he didn't have near as much control as you presume, and your counter-argument is "Well, he was gonna' do some of that stuff in Rangers." Fine, maybe he was, but that doesn't change the fact that he *didn't* get to do it in B5, though by your admission he wanted to. Ergo, lack of control.

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Meaning no disrespect, but this is a silly argument. Of course there were many things beyond JMS' control; that's simply the nature of TV. Nobody in the history of TV (that I'm aware of, anyway) has ever had a ten year deal. Maybe (though I doubt it) a five year deal but that certainly wasn't the case with B5.

Substitute the word 'vision' for 'control' and it might be worth discussing. Because I (and others) do contend that B5 was generally one man's vision with the entire cast and crew engaged in trying to fulfill that vision.

Something that also needs to be considered is that some of the documents that we've seen recently were directed toward network personnel. Did JMS really want a ten-year deal or was he indicating to the network that what he was proposing could turn out to be the Next Big Franchise? Could be a little of both.

Jan

Republibot 3.0 said:

Your fundamental argument is flawed. You are insisting that JMS had total and absolute control of the entire series from day one, and that any departures from that control were insignificant.

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My argument was about the specifics of the sequel. I don't think you'll find any message where I said "Joe had total and absolute control of the entire series from day one." Saying "I still don't follow what control you think Joe didn't have" is not such, it's a statement of curiosity because I didn't follow what you meant.

Republibot 3.0 said:

I pointed out that B5/BP got truncated down to one series, which is a massive, huge thing that indicates he didn't have near as much control as you presume, and your counter-argument is "Well, he was gonna' do some of that stuff in Rangers." Fine, maybe he was, but that doesn't change the fact that he *didn't* get to do it in B5, though by your admission he wanted to. Ergo, lack of control.

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What I originally said was "that doesn't mean that all of the sequel ideas were transposed" and was specifically pointing out one idea that wasn't (the Empire Building revolving around Delenn & Sinclair/Sheridan's son.) It was the 220 episodes = 110 episodes concept that I was disagreeing with, not the general concept of moving ideas from the sequel to the main show, and nowhere did I state whether it was Joe's choice or not.

Jan said:

Nobody in the history of TV (that I'm aware of, anyway) has ever had a ten year deal. Maybe (though I doubt it) a five year deal but that certainly wasn't the case with B5.

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If we're talking the show orders from PTEN, those were only ordered one season at a time like most American television shows. If we're talking contracts with cast and crew, they were for five years.

Jan said:

Republibot 3.0 said:

Your fundamental argument is flawed. You are insisting that JMS had total and absolute control of the entire series from day one, and that any departures from that control were insignificant. This is clearly not the case, as Triple F and anyone who's had any dealings with television can attest.

I pointed out that B5/BP got truncated down to one series, which is a massive, huge thing that indicates he didn't have near as much control as you presume, and your counter-argument is "Well, he was gonna' do some of that stuff in Rangers." Fine, maybe he was, but that doesn't change the fact that he *didn't* get to do it in B5, though by your admission he wanted to. Ergo, lack of control.

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Meaning no disrespect, but this is a silly argument. Of course there were many things beyond JMS' control; that's simply the nature of TV. Nobody in the history of TV (that I'm aware of, anyway) has ever had a ten year deal. Maybe (though I doubt it) a five year deal but that certainly wasn't the case with B5.

Substitute the word 'vision' for 'control' and it might be worth discussing. Because I (and others) do contend that B5 was generally one man's vision with the entire cast and crew engaged in trying to fulfill that vision.

Something that also needs to be considered is that some of the documents that we've seen recently were directed toward network personnel. Did JMS really want a ten-year deal or was he indicating to the network that what he was proposing could turn out to be the Next Big Franchise? Could be a little of both.

Jan

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One man's vision? I totally agree with that. I'm not denigrating nor diminishing what he did. But that's not what Joe is talking about here. He's saying everything happened according to plan, with only trivial departures, and everything Joe wanted to do he ended up doing. That's clearly not the case.

JoeD80 said:

What I originally said was "that doesn't mean that all of the sequel ideas were transposed" and was specifically pointing out one idea that wasn't (the Empire Building revolving around Delenn & Sinclair/Sheridan's son.) It was the 220 episodes = 110 episodes concept that I was disagreeing with, not the general concept of moving ideas from the sequel to the main show, and nowhere did I state whether it was Joe's choice or not.

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Which is my point. I'll recap it here:
1- I say Joe didn't have godlike control.
2- You say he did.
3 - I point out a clear instance where he didn't - B-prime being enfolded into B5, which worked out to everyone's benefit, but wasn't what he wanted.
4- You say "You're wrong, he didn't get all the B-prime stuff he wanted into B5, and as evidence..."
5- I point out that him having to leave stuff out doesn't support your theory of Joe's godlike control.
6- You say it does, neener neener.