Chrysalis and Kosh Statement

Heres a question, i wondered for a while but never bothered to ask when i first read it. At the end of chrysalis, kosh say's "You have, forgotten something" which JMS say's has another meaning but i'm unsure what that meaning is, as JMS quite clearly states that its not the missing 24 hours in his head. So what is it.

To show you what i'm talking about, this is from the lurkers guide for that episode.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/022.html

Since I mentioned it over on Internet (but not where it belongs), I give y'all a little gift...Kosh's very last line of the season, in "Chrysalis."
"You have...forgotten something."

It's not nearly as straightforward as it looks, and that one line will carry with it *major* repercussions. (And no, it doesn't refer to the 24 hours.)

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So what is it if its not the 24 hours? Please help.

Well, he did forget to get Sakai an engagement ring... ; )

I've always assumed that he'd forgotten about Delenn. She was going to tell him about everything...mostly about the Earth/Minbari War, his missing 24 hours and why the Minbari surrendered at the Battle of the Line. She warned him that he didn't have much time. Then she went into her caccoon, and by the time he reached her after Kosh's warning, it was too late.

I also took that meaning.

In my opinion tho' that was the obvious answer as that is what he ran to at the end, he went to delenns quarters to get that answer. So that seems the immediate answer, and my interpretation of JMS's statement means there is more than that to it.

So that makes (at least) two meanings:

1) The forgotten 24 hours.
2) Forgetting that he'd promised to meet Delenn.

I could also be that Sinclair forgot that he was Valen.

How could he forget that though, he never knew at that point?

I've always thought that that was one of Kosh's more obvious moments. You could attempt to read more meaning into it, but I think it's entirely possible that Kosh was just reminding Sinclair of his rather important appointment.

It's also possible that Kosh was giving Sinclair a subtle nudge about the hand/encounter suit deal. Since Kosh's original intent was to show Sinclair his hand, and since that fell through, perhaps Kosh was attempting to get Sinclair back onto that line of thought.

But again, we may be reading too much into this.

Those darn Vorlons! Always confusing people!

[Kosh]
It's our job.
[/Kosh]

Heres a question, i wondered for a while but never bothered to ask when i first read it. At the end of chrysalis, kosh say's "You have, forgotten something" which JMS say's has another meaning but i'm unsure what that meaning is, as JMS quite clearly states that its not the missing 24 hours in his head. So what is it.

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So what is it if its not the 24 hours? Please help.

[/quote]


Well, assuming the obvious stuff is out there....and JMS is talking about something under the surface.........given how Kosh refers to people as Having Always Been Here............I would take a wild stab that Kosh is refering to the source.......the place people come from......the past before the beginning.....that almost no one remembers........the being here BEFORE and AFTER the current life span......I can only assume Sinclair is special in more than just using the Triluminary to become Valen, so Kosh would be referencing something he has long forgot about himself.............it feels right, but undeniably a stretch.........I now wonder if just ANYONE could use a triluminary to tranform......or if Sinclair and his "descendants" were special in ways not outlined in the series making only them able to utilize the full power of the Triluminary.......???

Well, assuming the obvious stuff is out there....and JMS is talking about something under the surface

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And you know this ... how?

Just because JMS (like Kosh) is sometimes ambiguous, the doesn't mean that he's always ambiguous. If that were the case we'd have to dig for hidden meaning every time somebody says "activate defense grid" or "good morning."

The most obvious clue as to what Kosh "really" meant is Sinclair's action. As soon as Kosh reminds him that he's forgotten something Sinclair heads straight for Delenn's quarters. (I haven't seen the episode in awhile, but I think he even says "Delenn" before running off. That's a pretty powerful indication that Kosh's intended meaning was immediately understood by Sinclair, as is the fact that Kosh doesn't say, "Hey, where're you going? I didn't mean your meeting with Delenn." )

As Freud said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Joe

When someone says "assuming something"....it means you DON'T KNOW......but you are making an educated guess to get the ball rolling. Relax Joe. Breathe.


We certainly have the obvious explanation. But if, as was previously said, JMS alluded to a double meaning, then we can certainly look for something other than the visual reaction it ellicited from Sinclair.

No one really knows other than JMS.

Actually your incessant misuse of ellipses as some kind of all-purpose punctuation makes it very difficult to understand your posts most of the time, so I think I can be forgiven for not quite working out whatever it is you were trying to say there. How about I worry about my breathing and relaxation (both of which are fine, thanks) and you worry about communicating more clearly so as to avoid these little misunderstandings.

Regards,

Joe

Well, this seems to be getting a tad testy. But lets break it down and have done with it:

I assume when you talk about "ellipses" (which are basically ovals), you are refering to the circles that most people tend to call periods. I do use them alot to indicate pause or an open ended statement, and so far you are the first to claim that it is confounding to a persons ability to understand what I'm saying.

Since this nitpick of typing style does nothing for the topic of the thread, can we at least settle on the idea that most people here have not had such "misunderstandings" from my use of periods and perhaps tolerate it for the benefit of staying on topic and on more vital subjects of discussion?

Thank you for your input. I'll bear it in mind if anyone else comes to such difficulty with the meaning of my posts.

Great. Good.

Let's have an interesting discussion about Kosh and his meanings......since we are sure to figure him out one these days...........

Since my last post here, it has been mentioned elsewhere that there are some others who have been having difficulty with my frequent use of the dots. And it also has been revealed to me that there is a use of the word Ellipses that refers to a set of three dots used as a standard to reflect the absence of something. Perhaps it is this convention that is a the heart of the difficulty.

Anyway, I just wanted to post to let you know, Joe, that I AM sorry for the troubles it caused. It seems to be a very standard reaction to the usage. I'll see about refraining from further use of the style.

I sometimes uses an ellipsis, in much the same manner you have, to indicate an open ended sentence, an incomplete thought, i.e. the absence of an ending. This can also be an invitation to the reader to complete it themselves. That is common practice. I see nothing wrong with it, and see no reason why others wouldn't understand it. But, I would agree that anything can be used to excess, and perhaps you have relied on it a bit too much... There's another use of an ellipsis, to indicate a sentence that is somewhere between a statement and a question. Watch Peter Lorre in many of his classic films, and you can hear the ellipses at the end of many of his sentences. The Greeks got along without any punctuation, but I see no reason why we shouldn't take full advantage of all we have.


EDIT:
I went back a few posts and read the most recent one where you used many ellipses. As far as actual misuse, well, an ellipsis is actually just three dots, i.e. ... so, one could say you didn't use ellipses at all, because you used more dots that three. Or, one could call it misuse, because you should have used three, followed by a space or two, to indicate pauses in the progression of the elements of your thought. Probably the most common use of an ellipsis, apart from missing text, is to indicate a pause. I didn't have any trouble making sense of it. Frankly, I would rather see it that way, rather than as one big run-on sentence, which is the thing I am often guilty of. OOPS! I ended a sentence with a preposition.

I did feel the open end of a sentance was an accepted application. However I have come to use it to create pauses in the MIDDLE of sentances and this may be more the source of the issue. I really am not entirely sure how it warps the presentation of the ideas discussed, but somehow, I guess so. I'm still chewing on it.

It will be hard to change my typing manorisms I think, like quitting cold turkey. But it would seem to be worth trying to do.

I may have gotten a little too creative in my desire to expand my tools for expression. In many ways, the written and typed word is VERY limiting to the "senses" you can communicate. Ah well.

I assume when you talk about "ellipses" (which are basically ovals), you are refering to the circles that most people tend to call periods.

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Your assumption is incorrect. As Jade pointed out indirectly the word simply has more meanings than you're aware of. And "ellipses" is the plural of "ellipsis" - the omission of words or rhetorical pause normally indicated by three periods. (Not two, not thirty-two, three.)

Main Entry: el·lip·sis Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: -pss
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ellip·ses \-psz\
Etymology: Greek elleipsis, literally, condition of falling short, defect, from elleipein to leave in, leave out, fall short (from el- -- from en in -- + leipein to leave) + -sis

2 [Latin, from Greek elleipsis] a (1) : omission of one or more words that are obviously understood but must be supplied to make a construction grammatically complete (as in "all had turned out as expected" for "all had turned out as had been expected")

b : omission of an element (as from a train of thought or a speech) either fortuitously or for artistic effect : a leap or sudden passage without logical connectives, from one topic to another

3 : marks or a mark (as ... or *** or ) showing omission of letters, words, or other material



Excerpted from: "ellipsis." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (13 Mar. 2005).

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Everybody uses ellipses from time to time, but you have been doing it so often that reading your posts has become a chore and the temptation to skim becomes irresistable.

Given the way these two "thoughts" are split, or joined, or whatever, the meaning is easy to lose:

Well, assuming the obvious stuff is out there....and JMS is talking about something under the surface

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What exactly does "out there" mean in this context? "Already part of the discussion"? "Way out there?" - too silly to be considered? This is not exactly a model of clarity to begin with and randomly sticking a bunch of periods with no spaces in the middle of it does nothing to make its meaning more obvious.

Since the dawn of printing the Engilish language has developed a whole series of punctuation marks and conventions for using them precisely to make it easier to express ourselves in print much as we do in speaking. Sometimes they make things clearer than mere spoken words (without visuals, for instance) could.

(Consider the difference between, "Those old things in the corner are my ex-husband's" and "Those old things in the corner are my ex-husbands." )

I recommend the delightful Eats, Shoots and Leaves by Lynne Truss to anyone who wants to explore the joys and wonders of English punctuation.

Not at all testily,

Joe