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Old September 3rd 07, 19:21   #301
GKarsEye
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

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Oh, I've always thought Vintari was probably born to some random woman Cartagia knocked in a night of debauchery.
If the Centauri follow the same rules as most of our civilizations, which of course we have no reason to believe they must, except for the fact that everything else about their culture is so clearly modeled after the Roman Empire and medieval Europe, then a bastard child wouldn't be given a line in the succession without a fight.


I guess I must've missed or glazed over all that dialogue about Vir killing his father, or just blew it off or something.
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Old September 8th 07, 14:03   #302
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

I thought that both episodes essentially reflected the same principle by using two totally different storylines.

In both stories, the "good guys" are faced with a dilemma that has two obvious outcomes... both with harsh consequences.

However both Lochley and Sheridan find a way to see beyond the obvious solutions to their respective dilemmas and choose a better path.

Galen seemed to be on a "god trip" with Sheridan. He set the wheels in motion for both choices... he was clearly testing Sheridan in a manner that sort of reminded me of the exchange between God and Abraham over Isaac.

It made me think in both cases about how in modern politics, leaders tend to take the more physical obvious actions... favouring a fast response instead of questioning motives or engaging with your apparent enemy in an attempt to divert all parties from taking foolish action.
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Old September 8th 07, 15:34   #303
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

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I thought that both episodes essentially reflected the same principle by using two totally different storylines.

In both stories, the "good guys" are faced with a dilemma that has two obvious outcomes... both with harsh consequences.

However both Lochley and Sheridan find a way to see beyond the obvious solutions to their respective dilemmas and choose a better path.

Galen seemed to be on a "god trip" with Sheridan. He set the wheels in motion for both choices... he was clearly testing Sheridan in a manner that sort of reminded me of the exchange between God and Abraham over Isaac.

It made me think in both cases about how in modern politics, leaders tend to take the more physical obvious actions... favouring a fast response instead of questioning motives or engaging with your apparent enemy in an attempt to divert all parties from taking foolish action.

Exactly. In watching the commentaries on a few B5 episodes, JMS constantly brings up the point that B5 is about choices, responsibility, and consequences. These particular episodes mirror the end of the Shadow War in that the characters reject the either/or alternatives offered to them.
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Old September 8th 07, 17:01   #304
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

It was also nice to see a couple of Warlocks... albeit briefly and pretty much on the receiving end.
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Old September 11th 07, 10:28   #305
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

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I can't believe we're the only two talking about this, Bester! Where is everybody?
Waiting for surface mail from Canada to Europe, whatever mysterious routes it does take.

I'm however happy to announce its arrival. So I guess it came by ship across the Atlantic, instead of taking a train across Siberia. Whatever the case, it came cheap, and slipped by the customs office with success.

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Doesn't Londo state during the course of the series proper that the position is heriditary?
Londo could likely figure out a few loopholes to put Vir into the line of succession. Formal adoption, etc.

To my recollection the background is, that in the beginning of the Centauri Republic, emperors were chosen by the Centaurum. When stagnation hit, it became a hereditary thing, though.

Last edited by puzzle; September 11th 07 at 14:36.
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Old September 11th 07, 14:40   #306
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

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A 'demon' in the religious sense is the only logical explanation for the entity based on the information provided in the story.
A prank-loving telepath or technomage could have pulled it off without a companion creature.

Chemical reactions, holographic fire, psychology backed by audiovisual tricks... if a technomage was at work, even machines would confirm: "it smells here" or "it is cold" - nevermind that other machines created the effect.

For a telepath, sensations like smell, cold, visions of fire, noises... would be nothing but thoughts and memories, possible to imagine and convey.

Machines a telepath likely couldn't confuse, but their operators more than a little: "you remember reading ten degrees Celsius".

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Can anyone provide an alternative explanation as to why it needed a man of God to release it from Burke's body?
One alternative explanation is that it wasn't trapped.

The whole thing could have been a stunt to cause people to behave in certain ways... or even study how they would behave. Either for tangible profit... or the jollies of it.

Last edited by puzzle; September 11th 07 at 15:10.
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Old September 13th 07, 08:07   #307
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

Ok, forgive me for not reading the whole thread yet; but here are my initial thoughts.


I enjoyed it greatly. The first story felt more like a real good episode of Outer Limits (exorcism in space) than Babylon 5 & I'll to a few in continuity problems I have with it. The second was once again entertaining, but I have a few beefs.

Story 1:

- No addressing of the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS first diagnosis the characters should come to in the B5 Universe: the "Possessed" is a powerful Telepath whose powers have just become active & damaged his sanity in the process.

- No addressing of the other issue that I'd have brought up immediately, but I'll forgive Lockley for not having done so since she was there during the Shadow War: the being in question is an old one bound by the Vorlons

- The quarantine & near planatery extinction 5 years ago didn't help Church recruitment?




Story 2:

- How... precisely... did "Earth" stop the Centauri Republic before? Their only two crusades of Galactic Conquest since contact with Earth were stopped by Londo (who also started it), while the second (Drahk engineered one) was stopped by an ISA investigation (via primarily a Minbari Ranger) & a mass attack by the Narn & Drazi.

- Cartegia had no heirs! Londo said so! And we know he wasn't wrong, or else there would have at least been an ISSUE over him being next in line for the throne.

- No one but Londo & Vir know who killed Cartegia. The "rumors" should point to Londo as the assassin.

- I'm sorry... I realize it's just ISN being stupid... but Sheridan won the Shadow War on a White Star, not a Star Fury.

- Minbar has a "ROYAL PALACE"?!?!?!! I'm going to assume that Sheridan was speaking Centauri there to the Prince and that was the nearest translation for the ISA Headquarters & Presidential Residence.

- I kind of hate the references to his previous encounter with Galen considering that we don't know how that turned out precisely.... God I wish JMS would do B5 comics to finish the Crusades story archs he had planned & do the Telepath War.



The reference to G'Kar & Franklin together exploring Beyond the Rim made me tear up a little.
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Old September 13th 07, 13:41   #308
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

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Story 1:

- No addressing of the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS first diagnosis the characters should come to in the B5 Universe: the "Possessed" is a powerful Telepath whose powers have just become active & damaged his sanity in the process.

- No addressing of the other issue that I'd have brought up immediately, but I'll forgive Lockley for not having done so since she was there during the Shadow War: the being in question is an old one bound by the Vorlons

- The quarantine & near planatery extinction 5 years ago didn't help Church recruitment?
Why do people seem to need to be shown Lochley saying, "Nope, not a telepath" in order to realize that she's discounted other possibilities off-screen and that it's all just not important to the story? I again come back to Sheridan's line in an episode of B5: "Ambassador, there are so many things in the universe that are, and so many things that aren't. If I were to take the time to deny all the things that aren't, we'd be here for centuries, wouldn't we."

The whole point of the story is Lochley's realization that Asmodeus wasn't "bound out among the stars" as he claimed, but actually bound to Earth as a prison. The story is not about all the things that Asmodeus isn't. It isn't even about what Asmodeus truly is, which is why we don't ever get an answer-on-a-platter as to his true nature. The story is about the arrival at understanding; it's about being confronted with what appears to be only two options, but realizing that the truth lies in the third if only one adjusts the way one is thinking.

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- Cartegia had no heirs! Londo said so! And we know he wasn't wrong, or else there would have at least been an ISSUE over him being next in line for the throne.
You don't think Cartagia slutted around? Just because the Centarum didn't know at the time they appointed Londo to Prime Minister, and then on to Emperor, doesn't mean that a child of Cartagia didn't exist. It'd be so easy for Cartagia to just screw around with some miscellaneous Centauri woman who wouldn't have even known it was his if she went around with other men.

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- No one but Londo & Vir know who killed Cartegia. The "rumors" should point to Londo as the assassin.
Except you don't know the source of the rumors or how they came to be promulgated. Until we do, we can't say they can't possibly point to Vir. There are quite a few people in the Centarum that knew about the assassination plot, and the Centauri are good at acquiring secrets.
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Old September 13th 07, 14:47   #309
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

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You don't think Cartagia slutted around? Just because the Centarum didn't know at the time they appointed Londo to Prime Minister, and then on to Emperor, doesn't mean that a child of Cartagia didn't exist. It'd be so easy for Cartagia to just screw around with some miscellaneous Centauri woman who wouldn't have even known it was his if she went around with other men.
Furthermore... i believe it wasn't Londo who initially said that... it was the Minister for Intelligence... who was part of the conspiracy and on Narn away from the facts. I'm not saying he was errant in what he said, but his intention was to achieve a political objective. It was politically important to make sure the man they believed would be most effective at restoring order to Centauri society - namely Londo, would be in an unopposed position.

The current British Royal Family are actually only in the position they hold today because basically we asked a member of the Dutch nobility if he wouldn't awfully mind invading us (without resistance) to help depose our politically inconvenient king. Basically we conveniently "forgot" who the rightful heir was, in order to achieve political stability.

Slightly different circumstances, entirely the same reason behind both... and similar outcomes.

The question is whether Londo or Vir will eventually have a Jacobite rebellion of their own on their hands.
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Old September 13th 07, 20:07   #310
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Re: B5:TLT - Show Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

My biggest problem is still the "Earth stopped the Centauri before" thing....
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