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Old June 20th 07, 22:23   #61
Shabaz
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

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Oddly enough, the part I disliked the most was

That is *not* a government function IMO.

Jan
As long as they strive to be accurate, why not? Brochures seem pretty innocuous to me.

edit: I just read through one, and they actually state they're legally considered "an anti-constitutional movement with a criminogenic structure". Warning people against such an organisation with brochures seems about the most innocuous thing you can do, and warranted for an organization operating both against the rule of law, and the foundations of a democratic nation.

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Old June 20th 07, 22:38   #62
Jan
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

Guess I'm just not fond of the government, any government, trying to do my thinking for me. I dislike government taking the role of nanny. Either the organization is legal or it's not and if it's not there needs to be conclusive proof of what laws they've broken. Being in opposition to an established government isn't usually a crime in a democratic nation.

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Old June 20th 07, 22:54   #63
Shabaz
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

They're not trying to say what you should think, from what I can see, just trying to provide background information on an organization that has been found to operate against the law in the past, information that the organization tries to keep secret themselves. The Church actively works against people having the opportunity to get an informed opinion on them, and as some of the rulings in the Spaink case quite clearly state, they do so quite ruthlessly. They behave in ways actively harmful to their members, and then try to hide this. This can not be acceptable behaviour, can it? It's the CoS that tries to take away your choice of getting an informed opinion about them, not the German government.

Anyway, I found some of the brochures, but all in German. However, this document, while not a brochure, seems to contain a lot of the same background information on the German situation and their findings.

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Old June 24th 07, 01:29   #64
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

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Guess I'm just not fond of the government, any government, trying to do my thinking for me.
99.999% of the time, I would agree with this. I guess I feel that warnings about Scientology are similar to the warnings they put on cigarette packs... perhaps not that effective, but you gotta try sumpthin'!
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Old June 24th 07, 05:44   #65
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

Not to defend Scientology, but...

if this attitude were directed at most any other religion, would so many be taking it so calmly?

I might agree with what they're saying, but then does that mean I can wage my own propaganda war against, oh, Protestantism?
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Old June 24th 07, 12:17   #66
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

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Not to defend Scientology, but...

if this attitude were directed at most any other religion, would so many be taking it so calmly?

I might agree with what they're saying, but then does that mean I can wage my own propaganda war against, oh, Protestantism?
Well .. Germany's recent hard stance on religiously extremist groups started after 9/11, and started with militant islam.



7 is Islamic extremism, 8 is Scientology.

A byproduct of 9/11 having been organised and planned on German soil, I believe - tolerance no longer includes turning a blind eye to cultist behaviour when it might actually harm people.

Extremist christian groups, such as Opus Dei, are also not treated too well in Germany, I believe.
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Old June 24th 07, 18:53   #67
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

Neither am I fond of wasting taxpayers' money on printing brochures... but state does prohibit people from privately damaging their property, or privately harrassing them back.

Since it prohibits that, it might just as well demand their religious racket to pay taxes, and print some cautionary brochures for that money.

Taking money from those who seek to accumulate it, and saying a word of caution regarding those who use words to manipulate others, is an equal and balanced exchange.

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Old June 24th 07, 21:36   #68
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

I find the views expressed here over Scientology both rather amusing and disturbing at the same time.

Amusing because I think they are a bunch of bawbags.

Disturbing because of what people want to class as a religion.

You want to take the piss out of Scientologists beliefs because they are unbelievable then it's time you did the same with the rest of them.

I mean 5,000 people feed by a couple of loaves and a few fish and nobody said "please Sir,can I have some more".Nobody asked for pudding either.Give me a break.

As for unlawful practices,does the German state give out leaflets warning about giving the Catholic Church a wide berth because of it's history of child abuse and it's unlawful cover up of this ?

I'd sooner get pestered by a bunch of muppets than have one of my kids sexually abused and the organisation where it occured try and hide it to save face.

As for making money,religion has always been the biggest scam known to man,they all do it.

As far as I'm concerned no religion should be exempt from tax.If they cannot support themselves then tough luck,you're obviously not wanted enough.

As for Hubbards books I've only read Battlefield Earth (which I rate) and the Mission Earth series.I found his whole psycharity thing rather amusing.The fact that Americans tend to be shrink obssessed could have a major impact on his paranaoi.

They deserve the same respect as any other sect,be they Christian,Taoist,Muslim or any other group,no more,no less.
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Old June 24th 07, 23:59   #69
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

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They deserve the same respect as any other sect,be they Christian,Taoist,Muslim or any other group,no more,no less.
But deservingness is a result of behaviour.

Case in point: if I saw a Christian "converting" someone by lead and gunpowder (like the fashion was in old days - or with sword and fire, like the fashion was in even older days)... then I'd consider them to deserve the same right back.

If I saw a Muslim do it - same conclusion.
Any other stripe or color - same conclusion.
Including atheism, though it ain't a religion.

Now, if I were to see a Scientologist politely living in whatever way they're supposed to, but a Buddhist scamming and harrassing people...

...then naturally, I'd consider the polite person to deserve leaving alone, and the scammer / harrasser to deserve their goods returned to them.

And just like I reserve the right to say that Christianity has caused untold damage, Islam has caused untold damage, many sorts of pagan religions have caused great damage, Judaism has caused great damage, Hinduism has done so, and Buddhism too has been an excuse for wielding weapons... just like that, I reserve the right to say that Scientology has, until now (remarkably early in its history, for a religion) demonstrated all the qualities of a racket and scam. I have every reason to expect that, if given more influence, they'd do more damage.

Whether it's OK for a government to print leaflets about them... is a more interesting question. In my eyes, it's ethically fine (freedom of speech goes both ways), but probably not an efficient way. However, it is one way of dealing with the issue.

If a reasonable scientologist were to exist, they might be pretty embarrassed... but even without government-printed leaflets, I bet they'd be pretty embarrassed by their co-believers anyway.

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Old June 25th 07, 04:30   #70
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Re: Is JMS a Scientologist?

Define what you consider to be worthy of repect.

I pointed out a modern situation where the Catholic Church has hidden the rape of childeren to protect it's own interests.Are you denying that this is immoral and illegal?

As I said,should warnings not be given over all sects and their dangers?

FFS you would have thought the Germans learnt from their victimisation of the Jews,now they are doing it again.

Just because certain faiths have robbed us for a couple of thousand more years doesn't give them any more credence.They are essentially the same.

My own Big Hairy Balls Religion has as much validity as any other.

Once again I'll say the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says any person has the right to believe in any religion without prejudice.

I love it because it shows religion for the crackpot society it really is
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