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Old December 29th 06, 14:31   #51
crazyhorse
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

Found it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Star_%28Babylon_5%29

During the course of the Earth-Minbari war,on September 30th 2245 the Black Star entered the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter. Captain John Sheridan tried to halt the ship's advance, but nothing worked. Finally he decided to mine the asteroid belt with nuclear weapons, and used a fake distress signal to lure the ship into the belt as it was standard Minbari doctrine to ignore all surrender pleas and destroy all Earth war vessels without mercy, regardless of any fighting ability (or lack thereof) the Earth vessels may have had. Sheridan detonated his bombs, which destroyed the war cruiser.

That's the relevant text.Wiki is normaly quite good with this sort of stuff or at least gives warning if something is in dispute.
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Old December 29th 06, 14:36   #52
Joseph DeMartino
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

The Wiki article is based on Sheridan's S2 description of his destruction of the Black Star. This is contradicted by what we see on-screen in In the Beginning. (The battle does not take place in the Sol system, for starters, since the Minbari don't reach the Human's home base until the very end of the war. And our asteroid belt looks what is shown.)

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Old December 29th 06, 15:08   #53
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

If you want your stuff to be read it would help if you tried to make it readable. Solid blocks of unbroken text aren't. I don't know if this is an affectation, poor typing skills or what, but buy a f*****g spacebar already!

OK, I feel better. Nit-pick and rant over. We now join your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

Quote:
Heat does travel in space as we all know as we feel it when the sun comes up. It is only space itself that remains cold as there is nothing to heat up.
Yes, infrared radiation does travel through space. Next question - how much of its mass will a nuclear bomb in a vacuum convert to infrared radiation? Not as much as you'd think. Most of the heat affect from a nuclear blast on Earth, once again, is due to the effect of the explosion on the medium in which it occurs. Air molecules absorb energy from the blast, rapidly slowing high energy particles like x-rays down and converting them to things like infrared. The kinetic energy of the bomb is also readily converted to heat in an atmosphere and in the objects - buildings, cars, people - that it vaporizes. Neither of these effects is a factor in a nuclear explosion in vacuum.

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We see a nuclear blast take out a Minbari cruiser. It was not part of the asteroid that took the ship out but the blast itself so a warship can be taken out by a nuke.
Answered above. We see a sphere of superheated plamsa, most of which used to be the asteroids, take out the Minbari cruiser. And it takes two such hits at close range to do it.

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Of course missiles can be shot down. However there is ways of getting them closer to their target as well, using star furies for example. We see Kamakazi attacks on Minbari cruisers.
Well, we see Sinclair attempt such a thing, admittedly without the nuke. But we also see him fail. The Minbari decide to spare him so they can capture and interrogate him, but if they can get a tractor beam on a StarFury on full after burners they can certainly hit one with a anti-ship missle or a beam weapon. I doubt the tactic would work very well, if at all.

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Deliberate dirty bombs could make the whole radiation sickness thing come further into play. Most people would hesitate when faced with such a horrible fate.
The living and working areas of deep space craft would have to be so heavily shielded against the ordinary radiation of the space environment (not to mention their own drives and whatever the background radiation level in hyperspace is) that a nuke going off in the area would hardly be noticed.

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If nukes were just to be used on ground targets then why was B5 equiped with them? It would never be in a position to use them against ground targets. That leaves me thinking they were for another purpose. That purpose is never explained in the series or films.
Lots of things are never explained in the series or films. Lots of things are never explained in real life, either. So what? The nukes could have been for self destruction. They also could have been part of a resupply inventory for EarthForce ships. Among its many other functions B5 would have been designed to serve as a base for EF vessels in time of war and would have been equipped to supply them with necessities, possibly including nukes.

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Old December 29th 06, 15:09   #54
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

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Originally Posted by crazyhorse
Do we ever see missiles fired in the series?
The Earth planetary defense system fired missiles at the fleet directed by Sheridan. Earth Starfuries fired them at Mars domes. If I remember right, Raiders bombarded some colony with them. Also if memory serves, a fleet of Drazi & some others fired missiles at the Centauri homeworld, along with energy weapons. Finally, the Drakh fleet tried to fire them at Earth.

But effectiveness of missiles in the B5 world seems poor.

The only party which effectively used missiles against armed ships... was Shadows, and they could have probably taken those ships apart using a number of ways.

When some Drakh later tried to recreate the Shadow weapon, they did something wrong, and apparently created something different. It had rigid structure and a central point of vulnerability, and it didn't work as advertised.

Last edited by puzzle; December 29th 06 at 15:13.
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Old December 29th 06, 15:09   #55
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

I just knew I couldn't be right

I couldn't remember if they even said where it was in the film.What would stop a Minbari warcruiser raiding within the Solar System?One of the things I've always thought about space warfare is that any target could be hit anytime.Who cares how many ships you bypass,just jump out of hyperspace near your target and start shooting.Of course you would probably get sensors that could warn of approaching ships making any direct assault on a defended position.Pre warned with time enough to call in reinforcements,a relief fleet coming up from behind what not be a pleasant thought for any military commander.A raider hiding out the way without a fixed target in mind should be able to hide easy enough though.
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Old December 29th 06, 15:23   #56
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

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Originally Posted by crazyhorse
Who cares how many ships you bypass,just jump out of hyperspace near your target and start shooting.Of course you would probably get sensors that could warn of approaching ships making any direct assault on a defended position.
A lot of Hyperspace routes are probably bugged.

Younger races don't have ability to freely circumnavigate things in hyperspace. Seemingly because they lack a clue about something vital. Taking an off-beacon route somwhere is probably a tedious sequence of making errors and retrying for them.

Even warships with jump engines, which don't depend on jump gates, still seem to depend in some manner (at least for timely arrival) on the beacon network between jump gates.

Except possibly explorer ships. Those are probably hyperspace beacons in and of themselves, and equipped with a ample supply of positioning aids to spread on their return path. However precisely they do it, when their systems are OK, they somehow telescope out from an existing beacon, probably to try finding the hyperspace position of a given normal space landmark, to build a gate and install a permanent beacon there.

However, even the crew of the explorer ship Cortez which was depicted visiting B5, was pretty damn worried about sliding off beacon with damage in their systems.

Warships can probably go further off beacon than civilian ships, and also further than tiny autonomous spy probes, but if you plant spy probes on often used hyperspace pathways, you often seem to get early warning.

Mentions of hyperspace bugging:

When Lorien is traveling from Z'ha'dum to Babylon 5, I seem to recall the Brakiri representative (ambassador?) providing advance warning of having detected an approaching unknown ship.

Lorien could have probably chosen to go directly, not using a path beaten by younger races, but it chose like that. And for some reason, there seemed to be a "highway" at least temporarily used by Shadow vessels where Cortez got lost. Whether they flew there just because it was the "straightest" way between two Shadow installations, or because they used a beacon network of their own, is uncertain.

Also, when IPX people discuss in "Thirdspace" what the artifact might do, they mention that it might provide instant jumps to any location, thus making a valuable weapon capable of bypassing early warning systems.

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Old December 29th 06, 15:30   #57
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

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What would stop a Minbari warcruiser raiding within the Solar System?
The Minbari's own strategy. ItB clear suggests that they were systematically attacking Earth military and other strategic posts starting with those closest to Minbari and gradually working their way towards the Sol system. There's no indication that they ever leapfrogged into the Sol system itself for a raid and then left. (And since you can by-pass things, why stop to engage a small force in the asteroid belt rather than jumping to Mars to Earth itself with a larger force and ending the war. The problem with the "raid" theory is that the Minbari never got anywhere near the primary target, if the was really the Sol system they were in.)

Also the conversation aboard Sheridan's ship, about a ace cruiser "out here" and the fact that the patrol is seeking to make contact with the enemy suggest an effort to engage and defeat the Minbari far out in space. If they were looking for a Minbari task force raiding Earth's own system I think those scenes would have played with a much greater sense of urgency than the, "Well, they don't seem to be here, let's move to the next search grid" attitude they start with.)

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Old December 29th 06, 15:47   #58
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

Sinclair failed in his attempt to ram a Minbari but you do see another starfury ram one of the fins of a Minbari cruiser in ITB.We even see a cruiser ram a Sharlin although I believe that cruiser was one of the 5 that shouldn't of been seen in ITB as they were supposedly comissioned later?

Probably wrong again

For plasma to have caused the damage the nuke would of had to have been on the other side of the asteroid than the ship otherwise the plasma would be blown in the wrong direction.It appeared that the mines were facing the ship as I watched the film.

In addition a shockwave is seen going in all directions or not?This would not be the asteroid unless the nuke was buried in it and we see it clearly on the surface.Scientificly accurate or not is this what we see against the shadow ships in the final confrontation as well.Probably just for dramatic effect like sound in space but there just the same.

I reckon this space thing must be an american thing

Seriously you don't see it on british boards a lot.I only started doing it here because somebody else complained.
This is how a new paragraph should be done

I wonder how you manage to read books or even Wiki online as they don't have spaces after virtually every sentance

Funny thing is,I've got an eye sickness and I can read block text no problem.I'll try and remember to do it more for you then
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Old December 29th 06, 15:54   #59
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

I thought all ships had to have a fix on a jump gate,that's why when the Explorer craft goes of course it had to be found quickly to save it.Can't remember the name of the episode but it was where the Shadows were seen in hyperspace for the first time.
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Extract from the Declaration of Arbroath, 1320.

"me and other folk were just tryin tae get the boot in and some other guy banjoed him"

John Smeaton 2007

"You know why they're on the Internet don't you? Cos you wouldny speak to them in the fecking pub!" - Billy Connolly
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Old December 30th 06, 00:50   #60
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse
For plasma to have caused the damage the nuke would of had to have been on the other side of the asteroid than the ship otherwise the plasma would be blown in the wrong direction.
Now ASCII art isn't exactly the way to do drawings, but that's how I thought it occurred...

Before:
(ship) ....................((bomb)asteroid)

At this point, the bomb is either on the surface of the asteroid, or slightly embedded in the surface of the asteroid (like covered by loose rock material).

After:
(ship) <----(explosion plasma)-> ((crater)asteroid)

At this point, the explosion has occurred. Since the asteroid is probably quite heavy, it most probably still where it stood. Most likely, a crater has formed on its side facing the ship. Rock which used to be there, has been turned into plasma. The plasma ball expands. Since it can't expand into the asteroid (the damn thing is just too heavy to move aside) it must expand elsewhere, so the asteroid is causing an increase in the amount of plasma expanding towards the ship.

Sorry for the awful ASCII art, I never was good at it.

Quote:
I thought all ships had to have a fix on a jump gate
I think the gates and beacons are separate, actually. A beacon would be like an address plate on a house, while the gate would be like a door.

A warship is equipped to pay a visit without having anyone open a door for it. An explorer ship is equipped to drop in without knowing the correct address. An ordinary passenger or merchant ship needs to know the address, and have someone open the door for them.

Now, this reminds me of one possible way Earth Force could have tried defending Earth against Minbari advance. Namely, they could have destroyed part or whole of the beacon network in space surrounding Earth's solar system.

That if anything would have slowed down Minbari advance, but... if Minbari warships would have possessed really high-quality inertial navigation, they might have still been able to plop out of hyperspace pretty close to necessary places. And they could have thrown their own explorer ships into the mix to aid navigation in murky conditions.

Of course, if Earth government would have destroyed the local portion of the beacon network, it would have been pretty much trapped too, uncapable of conducting a serious evacuation, or interstellar trade with anyone who sold useful weapons. Cutting off an exit route in hope of cutting off an entry route might have been perceived as too risky. Even during the Shadow war, jump gates and related beacons don't seem to have been attacked much.

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