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Old December 28th 06, 23:04   #41
crazyhorse
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

Of course I read everything in the thread,I might not agree with it all though

First we have to realise that any timing devices,nukes themselves and any other technology is from the future and we don't actually know how good or bad it will be.Perhaps perfect timing has been developed or a million other things.You can't say something would or would not of happened based on todays technology.

Heat does travel in space as we all know as we feel it when the sun comes up.It is only space itself that remains cold as there is nothing to heat up.As soon as the radiated heat comes into contact with something however whatever it is that object will become warm.

We see a nuclear blast take out a Minbari cruiser.It was not part of the asteroid that took the ship out but the blast itself so a warship can be taken out by a nuke.

Of course missiles can be shot down.However there is ways of getting them closer to their target as well,using star furies for example.We see Kamakazi attacks on Minbari cruisers,imagine if those ships were kitted out with nukes set to go off after impact.Goodbye Mr.Cruiser.While fighting for the survival of the species then all options would be explored.

Deliberate dirty bombs could make the whole radiation sickness thing come further into play.Most people would hesitate when faced with such a horrible fate.

If nukes were just to be used on ground targets then why was B5 equiped with them?It would never be in a position to use them against ground targets.That leaves me thinking they were for another purpose.That purpose is never explained in the series or films.
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Old December 28th 06, 23:07   #42
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

Okay, that makes sense now. And the mines used at Corianna 6 were also emplaced on asteroids, I think. Actually having the bomb in contact with the target's hull would clearly be ideal.

Perhaps the mines would operate in this way: they would remain "asleep" until enemy ships moved into their vicinity, and then on a signal from a controller somewhere they would find the nearest hostile ship and close in. So in a sense they were just missiles, but missiles that were undetectable until they were seconds away.
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Old December 29th 06, 00:03   #43
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse
Heat does travel in space as we all know as we feel it when the sun comes up.
True, but heat (infrared radiation) has no standing mass, is easily shielded against, and is pretty poor at causing rapid motion (needed to break a ship structurally).

Quote:
We see a nuclear blast take out a Minbari cruiser.It was not part of the asteroid that took the ship out but the blast itself so a warship can be taken out by a nuke.
If so, I would be inclined to consider it either an inaccuracy of depiction, unlikely to happen if the events were to occur in reality, or the result of the nuclear plasma ball containing tens of tons of instantly vaporized matter, from the asteroid. How many tons of matter a bright fireball includes, would not be discernible for us viewers, but if the nuke was on the surface of the rock, or inside the surface (for concealment) the fireball must contain that.

Radiation with no standing mass, does not easily break your ship. Vaporized former rock as a big ball of plasma hitting your ship, can however break it, especially if it hits from an angle at which your ship is structurally vulnerable to collision.

This plasma contains lots of more protons (the other mass-giving component in ordinary matter besides neutrons, if we disregard electrons because their mass is tiny) than the bomb's own pieces would have contained. Protons have mass to move you, and electrical charge enabling them to "bump" into your ship's atoms.

Damage is enhanced by the fact that behind the plasma ball, is located another solid object (the rock) which means the explosion isn't free to dissipate in every direction. In fact, because the rock is massive, the plasma ball would be coming mostly in the way of the ship.

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Deliberate dirty bombs could make the whole radiation sickness thing come further into play.Most people would hesitate when faced with such a horrible fate.
Dirty bombs would again mainly affect planetary targets. Targets with an ecosystem which accepts incoming matter. Ships must by default be self-contained systems, already proofed against cosmic rays. Residual radiation from radioactive substances on their surface won't probably bother them much.

Now, neutron bombs however (nuclear bombs which convert more of their energy to neutron radiation, which passes through shielding better) might have perspective against armored targets, but nobody's yet learned how to make a nuclear bomb produce /much/ more neutrons. Only a little more.

Quote:
then why was B5 equiped with them?It would never be in a position to use them against ground targets.That leaves me thinking they were for another purpose.That purpose is never explained in the series or films.
This may sound far-fetched, but if you equip a space station, you might want to have something onboard in case someone flips an asteroid at your station. If you have early warning, you can then attach a bomb to the incoming rock, and blow it off course.

Last edited by puzzle; December 29th 06 at 00:16.
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Old December 29th 06, 00:36   #44
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

I agree that the whole ITB scene might not of been scientificly accurate.I don't reckon plasma from the asteroid would be the cause of the Black Stars destruction.Anything from the asteroid would have been pushed away from the ship by the explosion,not towards it as seen.

Of course all ships would have shielding against radiation but how good would it be and how much would be released by a nuke from 200 years in the future?Perhaps Neutron bombs are 10 a penny then.

Would it not be posible to load a nuke with a lump of super dense material in order to use it as a plasma shot?If this could breach a hull the radiation also comes into it again as it would be able to enter the ship.

Just think what radiation could do to the "living ships".Would it make them sick,cause them to mutate or anything else?

The Humans never attacked the Minbari Worlds as far as I knew so any nukes used on plantary targets would have to have been on Earth colonies during this war.I doubt Sherridan would of done that yet it is quite clear that his ship had used nukes or why else ask how many were left?Why do we see nothing of their use in the series or even hear about their use in the series?They are used 3 times that I know of and only once in space combat.

Personaly I believe it just comes down to people liking lasers and rayguns in their Scifi
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Old December 29th 06, 01:04   #45
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

Quote:
Just think what radiation could do to the "living ships".Would it make them sick,cause them to mutate or anything else?
It would depend on how good their genetic material's checksums are.

Our mechanisms for maintaining genetic integrity are pretty weak. The DNA molecules which carry our genes aren't known for big resilience, and the mechanisms for blocking harmful changes there, are mostly an unreliable patchwork.

The "genes" of a designed creature however, could be designed for great redundancy (imagine the same gene encoded several times, and translated only if all copies agree) or heavy error-checking (imagine the SHA1 checksum of each gene appended to it, and a protein which can calculate SHA1 decoding them - okay, that would have to be a bastardly smart protein ) and high stability (imagine a more resilient substance than DNA).

Finally, chances might be rigged insanely high in favour of a cell suiciding, as opposed to replicating damaged genetic material. Remember that Shadow Vessel disintegrating into dust at the end of the battle in "Shadow Dancing"? Perhaps it wasn't requested to go like that... perhaps it detected irrepairable corruption?

And finally, of course, designed biological systems could always ask their designers for advise on fighting a problem. While some of the designers might say "to hell with this remote drone, fly it into something", others, especially those aboard a passenger-carrying vehicle, might tell "all cells, download fresh self-defense algorithm now, and now apply it".

Quote:
Why do we see nothing of their use in the series or even hear about their use in the series?They are used 3 times that I know of and only once in space combat.
Probably because younger races in the B5 story were never depicted doing serious bombardment on a "really" inhabited world, excepting Centauri bombardment of Narn (and they were misers, so they let gravity do all the work). Mars, however, was not "really" fully inhabited, and when Earth Force needed to kill scores on Mars, it just broke the domes...

Quote:
Personaly I believe it just comes down to people liking lasers and rayguns in their Scifi
Well, ray guns get the goods there ASAP.

But some people depicted in B5, did go heavy on missiles. Where everyone else tentatively used a missile or bomb here and there, certain folks brought enough to blot out the sky. It's just that nobody knew if the warheads were nuclear, or something else. When required, they certainly made a big mess, and perhaps a bigger mess than the theoretical feasibility limits of nuclear weapons would allow.

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Old December 29th 06, 01:23   #46
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

I always thought the Shadows missiles were some sort of nuke although they could have a more powerful bomb.

I always saw the death cloud as a terror weapon.The manner of the attack and results would scare any other race stupid and make them more amenable to Shadow influence.

What I didn't understand is why they seemed to go for the little guys first.I would of took Minbar out first with the element of surprise on my side.The Alliance then loses it's most powerful ally.Wiping out a planet that could only offer light support first doesn't seem to make sense when you have gone into total war mode.All it would do would be give the other races time to prepare against the attacks which in fact did happen.
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Old December 29th 06, 02:00   #47
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

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Originally Posted by crazyhorse
What I didn't understand is why they seemed to go for the little guys first.
Possibly because they weren't in a "total war", at least from their own perspective yet (after all, Vorlons were their enemy, and they weren't going directly at Vorlons) but still sought to convince others of something... even if that information was by that time, well and truly drowned out by the power output of weapons.

I one digs thoroughly at what they'd have possibly sought to convince of... then perhaps they sought to dissuade any cooperation with Vorlons, even involuntary, or any united action, even voluntary, even for sensible and independent reasons. And sure enough, they didn't notice themselves being highly united, voluntarily under the single senseless goal... of preventing others from doing precisely the same.

Meanwhile from the mirror-image viewpoint of Vorlons, deciding independently (even if the decision was quite sane, like self-defense) or having any link to Shadows (even unrequested links) had probably become a flaw to be punished for.

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Old December 29th 06, 02:55   #48
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

The Vorlons at least went for one of the bigger boys when they went after the Centauri.

I thought that after Sherridan's bombing of Zhahadum that there was in fact total war going on with the Shadows making the first move and the Vorlons joining in soon after.Then again it has been a while since I've seen the series.
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Old December 29th 06, 13:22   #49
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

I think the vorlons moved first, I think after the death of Ulkesh which makes sense. Kosh's death sent them all icy towards the younger races they were assisting. The death of a second vorlon could have been the intolerable step that pushed them over the edge. Why help the races if they have turned on their "parental" elders?

It seems the Vorlons and Shadows seemed to blame us for the mistakes they made in raising us. To them, we were rejecting (from each of their perspectives) their help in favour of the other side which they believed to be totally wrong. So they wiped out any planet that to their knowledge had been influenced by the other side. Presumably their intention was to start again with any races left and isolate those races from involvement by other races. Of course this was deeply flawed because all the races had been touched by both sides and there would be none left. Even some Minbari factions had become entangled with the Shadows.

Interestingly, Coriana 6 is referred to by sheridan as a Bronze tech world. does this mean Bronze Age as we understand it? If they were not spacefaring, they might not have had any contact with the other races... so was the battle above them going on without their knowledge? Were they in a similar technological position to the Narns circa 1200?
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Old December 29th 06, 13:58   #50
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Re: B5 - Thirdspace

I can't remember who went first now although I'm pretty sure both of them did it in the same episode.

I looked up some stats on the warships in the series and although it was admitted that not everything was canon too many ships were said to have missile silos for me to discount it.I see no reason at all why these missiles could not be fired at targets in space as opposed to just at planetary targets.Do we ever see missiles fired in the series?OK,the Minbari might be safe with their cloaking technology from having a missile lock on but would this be true of EA ships?Were they used in the Civil War?I can't see Clarke being bothered about using them.

Joe was the destruction of the Black Star not in Sol's own asteroid belt?I'm sure I read somewhere that it was so,I'll try and find the info again so you can tell me if it is genuine.
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"me and other folk were just tryin tae get the boot in and some other guy banjoed him"

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