Why Minbari Tech Wears out Fast (minor TLADIS spoilers)

OK, I've heard comments about the Liandra's age and how B-52 airframes lasted a heck of a lot longer.

I agree and gave it a lot of thought. My theory:

Built-in obsolescence.

The Worker caste has to have something to do. If their stuff lasts too long, they have nothing left to build, people get laid off, unions get upset. Bad scene all around.

If a ships lasts only 20 years or so, everyone stays working, everyone's happy.

This may also explain the quick end of the Valen.

Hmm. Sound like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

"Unsafe at any Speed: My Life aboard Minbari Warships" by Tannier (published posthumously by Narns and Noble, Inc.)

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"We are (not) all Kosh."

It is well known that some Minbari ships have self-repair capabilities. Perhaps the worker caste decided to learn from Humans and included self-demolishment capabilities?

I suspect it was due to Earth traditions. Minbari warcruisers may have leaky reactors and lousy ventilation systems, but they are rarely built by lowest bidders.

Trust me, some unfortunate bonehead just found the wrong button...

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 23, 2002).]

I think that Minbari vessels are very durable. If they werent durable, then I doubt they would have been in service for a thousand years. Plus there is no proof that they arent durable.

Also, the Valen was a Ranger ship, not Minbari. There is a big difference between the two.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>If they werent durable, then I doubt they would have been in service for a thousand years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er, where do we ever see a Minbari ship that has been in service "for a thousand years"?

If you're thinking about the ships shown in the Minbari records from the previous Shadow was in "WWE Pt. 1", or those that arrive at B4 in "WWE Pt. 2", those not only aren't ships that are still in service 1,000 years later, they aren't even the same design. They are longer and narrower. (Go check your tape. That's OK. We'll wait.)

(There, see? )

Even if they were[:i] the same design, that's no reason to assume they were the same ships. Volkswagen kept turning out new Beetles of the same basic design for what seems like decades. That doesn't mean that every one you pass on the street is from the first model year.

And the Liandra isn't such a hunk of junk as everyone seems to assume. It was just salvaged at the start of the movie, after having taken severe battle damage, and the repairs aren't complete when it is assigned the mission. (Which should give everybody an idea of how short the Rangers are of ships at this point, and answer the question, "Where are the White Stars?") The hull, the part that corresponds to a bomber's airframe, seems to be in pretty good shape. It's the electronics that need a lot of work - which they'll doubtless get during the story interval between the pilot and the series. I don't think the ship is intended to be a rust-bucket the whole time, though it certainly isn't state-of-the-art.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

now we have a series finale...
David finally getting a white star...


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We live for the one, we die for the one. and... I am the one.

It pissed me off though that they didn't even SHOW a ship from the original series. I mean, would it be that big of a problem if Martel's first ship in the teaser was a Whitestar and not some generic warship?

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"Chekov man, it's all the same thing. Chekov and Buffy the vampire slayer - it's all about beautiful losers."

-James Marsters (Spike)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I mean, would it be that big of a problem if Martel's first ship in the teaser was a Whitestar and not some generic warship?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Given that they didn't have any of the CGI model, texture maps, etc. for the White Stars? The answer is probably "Yes!" Thank the nitwits at Warner Bros. (the same guys who feed the original negatives to the rats) for losing all of this material. It was probably easier to cobble together that "generic" warship, given all the other work that had to be done, than try to rebuild a White Star from scratch. Certainly they couldn't have recreated the White Star so perfectly that every anal propeller-head from Tampa to Seattle wouldn't be coming down on them for "screwing up the design", getting the texture wrong and making the main view window appear 1/12 as wide as the forward section is long, when everbody knows (and the RPG manual proves) that it is really 2/25s as wide.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It pissed me off though that they didn't even SHOW a ship from the original series. I mean, would it be that big of a problem if Martel's first ship in the teaser was a Whitestar and not some generic warship?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some points:
1. WB had lost *all* of the B5 models. They could only recover a few. (and a high-quality/closeup Whitestar model might not have been one of them)
2. The *very first* ship to show up on the screen in the movie was in fact a Raider fighter (which got blown up a fraction of a second later), which was prominently featured throughout season 1 of B5.
(See image: http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/gallery/images/img/image05.jpg )
3. As the Valen and Liandra leave Minbar, a Narn G'Quan cruiser can be seen in the background.
(See image: http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/gallery/images/img/image02.jpg )
4. A few WS's were seen far away on the Minbar cityscape shots. (I think, but I could be mistaken)

Nonetheless, I'm glad that we were shown new ships - I *like* variety. I find it rather refreshing for a new show. (And it also shows that the Minbari have more than three ship types)

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- Lars


[This message has been edited by Hyperspace (edited January 23, 2002).]

I never knew they managed to lose the CGI models. Rebuilding everything is going to be a huge task, I assume? Or did they only lose some, not everything?

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

JMS posted that they lost Everything.

Since they spent 5 YEARS building all the Babylon 5 CGI, it's going to take a while to redo.

One of the things they did was actually Continue to work on the models all the time, adding ever more Detail.

If you could get a hi res copy of "the Gathering" as it was first broadcast and compare the views of the Station to the same views in the Second Cut, you'd see a Lot more detail on the station.

The CGI guys took it for granted that their work would still be needed even After the show was over. For a Movie, perhaps.

The Big Screen would require the extra detail, so they used any extra time they had to work on it so they'd be Ready.

And, at the end of each season, they turned all their backups over to Warner for safekeeping.

Well, we now know where Warner cut the budget.
RATS in the Film Library?
Even With the rats, the film is Supposed to be stored in steel cans.
Some set of Teeth on those rats.




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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>RATS in the Film Library? Even With the rats, the film is Supposed to be stored in steel cans. Some set of Teeth on those rats.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps these were Shadow-enhanced rats? You know, the kind which phase directly into the film can, and out again.

Or a homesick Shadow looking for entertainment?

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 24, 2002).]

Talk about life imitating art.

The Victory Class Destroyer shipyards and all research contained there within, are destroyed by the Drakh... meaning the ISA have to start from scratch and redesign and build their new fleet of destroyers.

All the CGI info on B5 ships was lost and now they have to be remapped....

Talk about weird coincidences.

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>

Given that they didn't have any of the CGI model, texture maps, etc. for the White Stars? The answer is probably "Yes!" Thank the nitwits at Warner Bros. (the same guys who feed the original negatives to the rats) for losing all of this material. It was probably easier to cobble together that "generic" warship, given all the other work that had to be done, than try to rebuild a White Star from scratch. Certainly they couldn't have recreated the White Star so perfectly that every anal propeller-head from Tampa to Seattle wouldn't be coming down on them for "screwing up the design", getting the texture wrong and making the main view window appear 1/12 as wide as the forward section is long, when everbody knows (and the RPG manual proves) that it is really 2/25s as wide.

Regards,

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

actually, that isn't totally true. Check out this website if you don't believe me.
http://www.ap3d.com/Alternate_Perspective.htm

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I'm not sure what that link has to do with my sarcasm. Odds are nobody on the show ever heard of that site (if they had, they probably would have made them take down all the unauthorized B5 stuff on the site.) Certainly they weren't going to borrow or buy the model from such a site, even if they did know about it.

The fact that somebody else managed to make a nice White Star model (which they've been working on since 1999) doesn't tell us that GVFX should have been able to recreate it in the middle of doing all the complex FX for a TV movie on a tight schedule. (Especially given that they had none of the original files to work with, including the space backgrounds etc.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Even with the rats, the film is supposed to be stored in steel cans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But isn't always. They also use plastic, fiberboard, even cardboard boxes. Smart, eh? The negatives from The Gathering were also water damaged.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Is it to much to get a nice large safe to hold all the film in?

I mean, couldn't we take up a collection or something?

Just gotta be water proof, rat proof, fire proof..you know, the usual. With machine guns for defensive purposes.

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"We live for the one, we die for the one."

This is just the latest in a long series of similar incidents of poor planning by the studios when it comes to storing film.

Over the last 20 or so years, there have been dozens of stories about studios discovering that their film libraries have lost or destroyed the only copies of hundreds of movies.

Even the studios have no idea much money they've lost because of this. They usually discover it about the time some cable channel or film festival calls up and asks to rent a movie that hasn't been out for years.

They go looking for it and find that the roof has been leaking for 5 years. Right where that movie was stored.

Even Disney, which Always had a policy of storing films and re-releasing them every 10 to 15 years for new audiences, has had this sort of disaster.
That's why Fantasia had to be "re-colorized" and the soundtrack rebuilt the last time they brought it out.
The prints were almost unusable because of improper storage.
And because they hadn't thought to check the film's condition the Previous time they used it. If they had, they'd have noticed that the deteriation had already started.

Films from the 20s & 30s had even more Serious problems.
Because the film stock was Celluloid, many of them had to be dumped in the ocean for Safety reasons.
Celluloid turns into an Explosive when it gets old, particularly if it's been stored in a Hot location. And no one thought they'd need AC in a warehouse.
A very Unstable explosive. They didn't even dare Open the cannisters to see what was in them.
I understand the company that did the disposal was told to just treat the cans as if they were full of Nitro.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

I once heard a guy do a speech over film deterioration. It really is a shame that all these movies are being taken care of so carelessly.

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"We live for the one, we die for the one."

Being WB they probably didn't even fire the little incompetent $#!+ who did this. Is everyone there a F'g moron!

I am glad to hear that Warner Brothers washed the food before serving it to the rats.

No backup copies. I think I will bring this up on the Babylon5.moderated newsgroup.


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Andrew Swallow

I think I ruptured something laughing so hard at the first post.

Losing models isn't that big a deal, JMS could just scout out the net for some of the nicer CGI White Stars. It does suck that they lost the (assumption) physical models though. :/

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