Running out of White Stars (spoilers)

MeKoshYouKosh · Jan 21, 2002

According to JMS, about 100-150 White Stars were built during the Shadow War. At the time of "Rangers", only about 80 are left. Why don't they build more?

The White Stars were partially built with Vorlon assistance and technology, so it may not be possible (with the Vorlons gone) to build more. On the other hand, Vorlon technology was reverse engineered and adapted for the Excalibur and Victory: why not do that with the White Stars? You may not be able to reproduce exactly the Vorlon White Stars, but you should be able to get pretty darn close.

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The Hour of Scampering is usually around tea-time, according to the Vorlon/Human Translation Dictionary.

Natron · Jan 21, 2002

Spoiler boxes just in case:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>Well, by the time of Sleeping in Light, there are Blue Stars. They have a design very similar to the White Star, basically a smaller version of them.

I don't think they have Vorlon bio-armor, but I could be wrong.

After the Vorlons left with Lorien, what happened to their technology used on the White Stars? Was it destroyed like the Shadows destroyed their technology being used by Earth?

I remember reading that the Victory and Excalibur were scheduled to go to Minbar to have bio-skin grafted on to their hulls. The plague evidently rushed the Excalibur into service before this. Don't know if this is canon, but I always thought that technology left with the Vorlons.</td></tr></table>

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"We live for the one, we die for the one."

danny_in_space · Jan 21, 2002

The Vorlons didnt actually help produce the Whitestars, they just supplied some tech for it.

The Whitestars were made by the Minbari wroking caste, rangers, and B5 maint bots.

I just think Whitestars were made to combat the Shadows, and afterwards there was no real reason to make anymore. During the Drakh War, they most likely didnt need em considering they had Earth and Minbar backing em.

Plus I think they were expensive to make.

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channe · Jan 21, 2002

Many Whitestars actually got blown to hell by the Shadows, if you can believe it.

JMS just said on the newsgroup that the reason so many people are being brought up through the ranks (e.g. Tannier, Martel) is because the older, more experienced Rangers became Shadow fodder.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "I wonder," said Frodo, "but I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale."

MeKoshYouKosh · Jan 21, 2002

Quote:

"The Vorlons didnt actually help produce the Whitestars, they just supplied some tech for it.
The Whitestars were made by the Minbari wroking caste, rangers, and B5 maint bots."

As you say, the Vorlons provided some of the technology. But that doesn't mean they told the Minbari how to build that tech. The secrets to making the bio armor could have left with the Vorlons for example, although I've also heard the story that the Excalibur and Victory were scheduled to be fitted with it.

B5 maint bots did not build the White Stars. Repair them yes, build them no. That's why they're maint bots, not building bots.

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The Hour of Scampering is usually around tea-time, according to the Vorlon/Human Translation Dictionary.

Quagmire · Jan 21, 2002

Ships cost money.

See 'A Call to Arms' and Season five of B5 for indications that the Minbari weren't crazy about buying ships for everybody all the time.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Getting a little tired of JMS's/shows weird numbers.

1. First it's a thousand whitestars in a short story, now it's only a hundred... quite the difference. Especially since the figure refers to after the major wars.

2. 20,000 ships at the line from ITB novel, then it's 20,000 of 'their best'.

3. 250,000 die in the 2 year slaughter. Yet 50,000 of that were kills from Neroon. And EA has 30 billion (at least) people. Which is derived from Garibaldis comment about teeps being outnumbered 10,000 to 1 and Bester stating their are several million telepaths. Yet only 250,000 die? Even if the military was 0.01% of the population, it is in the millions range. And this is wartime where everybody and anybody was joining the military to fight 'extinction', I mean who wouldn't join the military... you're dead either way, may as well go down fighting. Makes no sense.

4. JMS also states there being 10,000 shadow ships, 10,000 Vorlon ships and 8,000 army of light ships at Corrianas 6. This was after the massive battle. Yet only a hundred whitestars??? How were they so prominent in the shots if they were so few?

5. ISN says there are only like a dozen human colonies, yet I can get a count of some 40 colonies.

6. 2x2MT bombs take out a 'super-sharlin' in a spectacular explosion yet a shadow missile with at least 2GT's in explosive power and god knows how much kinetic 'drill' power (it got to the core of a planet in seconds) did a little explosion. A magnitude more powerful at the very least yet has a less fierce explosion even though they're both thermo-nuclear.

7. One minute Sharlins can be taken out with nukes that are lame by todays standards, the next- "they cannot harm our ships".

8. 40 bombs, several asteriods, 3 explosions. Either they put several bombs together on the same asteriods, or they were rather pathetic in their effect. This is 3D space, the chances of a ship going past an asteriod in the size of a solar system are like a few trillion to one. So they obviously had an idea where the shadows/vorlons were going to pop out. Confusing.

Just a few numbers that have always bugged me for one reason or the other, just seems like a lot of contradicting figures.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

KoshN · Jan 21, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Natron:
Spoiler boxes just in case:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>After the Vorlons left with Lorien, what happened to their technology used on the White Stars? Was it destroyed like the Shadows destroyed their technology being used by Earth?</td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Shadows didn't

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> destroy their technology being used on Earth. Remember, both the Vorlons and the Shadows left their toys behind. The Drakh have the Shadow toys, and clues to where there's more (Read the CO trilogy.). However, the Vorlon toys are under guard on the Vorlon Homeworld, except for the stuff they gave the Minbari.</td></tr></table>

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Jan 21, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Getting a little tired of JMS's/shows weird numbers.

1. First it's a thousand whitestars in a short story, now it's only a hundred... quite the difference. Especially since the figure refers to after the major wars.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was always 100 Whitestars, actually 101 (the prototype, and 100 copies). I have no idea where you got the 1000 number.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
3. 250,000 die in the 2 year slaughter. Yet 50,000 of that were kills from Neroon.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the heck are you talking about, kills from Neroon?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
And EA has 30 billion (at least) people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt that. Earth has 10 billion in 2267. Between Earth and the colonies, in 2248, I doubt there was anywhere near 30 bilion in EA.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Which is derived from Garibaldis comment about teeps being outnumbered 10,000 to 1 and Bester stating their are several million telepaths. Yet only 250,000 die? Even if the military was 0.01% of the population, it is in the millions range. And this is wartime where everybody and anybody was joining the military to fight 'extinction', I mean who wouldn't join the military... you're dead either way, may as well go down fighting. Makes no sense.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but your argument is for the birds. The assumptions have no basis, and you're making connections where there aren't any. What are you talking about here, the E-M war, the Teep war? What?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
4. JMS also states there being 10,000 shadow ships, 10,000 Vorlon ships and 8,000 army of light ships at Corrianas 6. This was after the massive battle. Yet only a hundred whitestars??? How were they so prominent in the shots if they were so few?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We're closer to them, the whitestars. Our observation position is in amongst Sheridan's fleet.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:

6. 2x2MT bombs take out a 'super-sharlin' in a spectacular explosion yet a shadow missile with at least 2GT's in explosive power and god knows how much kinetic 'drill' power (it got to the core of a planet in seconds) did a little explosion. A magnitude more powerful at the very least yet has a less fierce explosion even though they're both thermo-nuclear.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One's inside the planet where the effects are shielded from us, and one's in outer space where we can see it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
7. One minute Sharlins can be taken out with nukes that are lame by todays standards, the next- "they cannot harm our ships".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bravado on Delenn's part. Her ships are being harmed. Several Sharlins were rammed and destroyed. Clearly the battle is lopsided, but her ships are being harmed. Maybe nobody at The Line had any nukes left.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Natron · Jan 21, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Shadows didn't

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>
destroy their technology being used on Earth. Remember, both the Vorlons and the Shadows left their toys behind. The Drakh have the Shadow toys, and clues to where there's more (Read the CO trilogy.). However, the Vorlon toys are under guard on the Vorlon Homeworld, except for the stuff they gave the Minbari.</td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was mentioned somewhere that the Shadows destroyed their research bases being used by Earth. The ones that were used to produce the OmegaX Destroyers. When the Shadows left they destroyed these facilities to prevent any of the younger races from making use of it. Although enough was left over to be used in the Warlock Class Destroyers.

Don't know if this is canon, but I know I've read it or heard it somewhere.

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"We live for the one, we die for the one."

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> What the heck are you talking about, kills from neroon?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In "Gray 17 is Missing" Neroon boasted to Marcus that he had killed 50,000 humans during the war.

[This message has been edited by breen (edited January 21, 2002).]

channe · Jan 21, 2002

I thought that was Neroon being an ass.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "I wonder," said Frodo, "but I don't know. And that's the way of a real tale."

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

He might have also been indicating he was responsible for their deaths. Via orders and stuff. He was Grey council after all.

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No choice, no choice at all.

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
It was always 100 Whitestars, actually 101 (the prototype, and 100 copies). I have no idea where you got the 1000 number.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm... yeah... I got it from a short story written by *drum roll*.... JMS. A quote from Garibaldi talking about how the thousand whitestars were used as pressure on the EA.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>What the heck are you talking about, kills from Neroon?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neroon tells Marcus that he had killed 50,000 of 'his' kind in the war. SInce Minbari do not lie except to save face for another, I find it highly unlikely it was at fault.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I doubt that. Earth has 10 billion in 2267. Between Earth and the colonies, in 2248, I doubt there was anywhere near 30 bilion in EA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, you or the show, you or the show... whatever will I do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Sorry, but your argument is for the birds. The assumptions have no basis, and you're making connections where there aren't any. What are you talking about here, the E-M war, the Teep war? What?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently birds can connect dots. Erm what assumptions? Garibalid and Bester may has well have said "1+1?", with my giving "2" as the answer. I fail to see the assumption. Garibaldi states mundanes outnumber teeps 10,000 to 1. Population figures are very easy to come by, he has the mind that is paranoid about telepaths. Byron also shows that garailbaldi always prepares for a conversation, knows where it is going, gets his facts and arguments ready. The talk with G'kar about weapons proves this. It was also in the presence of Edgars who has spent millions in finding a way to beat telepaths, and has research and supplies ready to place a leash on teeps. Numbers are quite important in this, yet he did not correct Garibaldi. Obvsiouly it is roughly correct. Bester is just slightly knowledgable about his teeps *sarcasm band plays in background*. So no, I'm gonna go with what the show gives me.

I'm talking about how 250,000 just does not make sense. Losses like that have been taken in months with just world wars (which technically did not have the whole world fighting). This is the whole world in a literal sense plus all the colonies fighting just to LIVE. I tend to think we'd take heavier losses.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We're closer to them, the whitestars. Our observation position is in amongst Sheridan's fleet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

8,000 was AFTER the huge battle, how many losse would have been taken in that time with such a big fleet clashing? Which means it would have been bigger in the fight.... so the whitestars would be dots. Yet they were everywhere, in just about every shot. And not every shot is from sheridens position, obviously.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>One's inside the planet where the effects are shielded from us, and one's in outer space where we can see it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eh??? Did we forget about the end of the war? With a Sharlin intercepting the missile? Quoted by a ranger to be in the thousands of megatons, as in 2GT's+. Yet the explosion was less furious than a bomb with a magnitude less destructive force. And that's with a MISSILE actually hitting and exploding from inside. A HUGE difference to a nuke some miles away.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Bravado on Delenn's part. Her ships are being harmed. Several Sharlins were rammed and destroyed. Clearly the battle is lopsided, but her ships are being harmed. Maybe nobody at The Line had any nukes left.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As in a lie. Yet Minbari do not lie, the very least she meant the EA weapons could not harm them. Which is different to kamikaze runs.

------------------
Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by allroy:
He might have also been indicating he was responsible for their deaths. Via orders and stuff. He was Grey council after all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the quote is something like "I personally killed 50,000 of your kind in the war, do you seriously believe you can hope to beat me?"

And no, Neroon was not grey council.

------------------
Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

The 10,000 to one figure was also mentioned in "Mind War".

Natron · Jan 21, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>1. First it's a thousand whitestars in a short story, now it's only a hundred... quite the difference. Especially since the figure refers to after the major wars.

Are the short stories considered canon? JMS quote:

Bear in mind that there were only ever about a hundred, maybe a hundred and
fifty whitestars built during the Shadow War. A LOT of those got wiped out
during said war, so now you've got maybe 80 or so.

2. 20,000 ships at the line from ITB novel, then it's 20,000 of 'their best'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are those not the same thing. There are 20,000 ships on the line, but they are considered the greatest for that reason. They stood in the face of extinction and I think that would be reason enough to consider them of "their best".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>3. 250,000 die in the 2 year slaughter. Yet 50,000 of that were kills from Neroon. And EA has 30 billion (at least) people. Which is derived from Garibaldis comment about teeps being outnumbered 10,000 to 1 and Bester stating their are several million telepaths. Yet only 250,000 die? Even if the military was 0.01% of the population, it is in the millions range. And this is wartime where everybody and anybody was joining the military to fight 'extinction', I mean who wouldn't join the military... you're dead either way, may as well go down fighting. Makes no sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

250,000? Human's are driven nearly to extinction, and only 250,000 die? 250,000 probably died at the Battle of the Line, and even then there were already millions, if not billions, of humans already dead. The 1 out of 1000 humans being telepaths makes sense.

Today there are about 6 billion people in the world, and there may have been 30 billion people by the time of the Earth/Minbari , but a vast majority of those were killed in the war, so 10 billion may seem like a small number, but it may only be Earth's population.

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"We live for the one, we die for the one."

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**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Natron:
250,000? Human's are driven nearly to extinction, and only 250,000 die? 250,000 probably died at the Battle of the Line, and even then there were already millions, if not billions, of humans already dead.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "250,000 dead" figure was mentioned in "And now for a Word". It referred to the total loss of human life of the entire war. I know, it makes no sense.

The Minbari were only attacking the military, not the colonies.

[This message has been edited by breen (edited January 21, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Ugh, what is with the quoting, it does not quote the entire post.

Not to mention my PC loves to crash halfway through writing a post. Happy days.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Are the short stories considered canon? JMS quote:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I should think a short story by JMS would be more canon than an offhand comment by JMS on a newsgroup. But I have no clue anymore, there seems to be no real consensus on numbers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Are those not the same thing. There are 20,000 ships on the line, but they are considered the greatest for that reason. They stood in the face of extinction and I think that would be reason enough to consider them of "their best".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, considering some of the ships were transports that were just going to ram... I can't see how they were 'their best' ship wise.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>250,000? Human's are driven nearly to extinction, and only 250,000 die? 250,000 probably died at the Battle of the Line, and even then there were already millions, if not billions, of humans already dead. The 1 out of 1000 humans being telepaths makes sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, that was the whole war IIRC, I believe Dr franklin stated it. And since a lot of human ships have a crew of some 50 people.... it tends to make less sense. Nope, not billions dead, you'd think so with such a slaughter over 2 YEARS, with the whole human race pitching in. But no, apparently 250,000 represents what a mankind slaughter would look like. Germans did more damage than Minbari, such an advanced race with virtually no losses, yet can't beat Germans who aren't even trying to wipe out mankind.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Today there are about 6 billion people in the world, and there may have been 30 billion people by the time of the Earth/Minbari , but a vast majority of those were killed in the war, so 10 billion may seem like a small number, but it may only be Earth's population.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except 10 billion did not die, only 250,000 and 50,000 of that being by Neroon. Like I said, I'm kinda fed up with these weird numbers. Didn't even get into scaling.

------------------
Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 21, 2002

Wan't Neroon just the second-in-command of a warcruiser at that time? How could he be responsible for so many deaths?
How were there 20,000 ships on the line, yet at least 50,000 were already dead. That means there were no more than 10 people per ship! It must count fighters.

Running out of White Stars (spoilers)

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