grey 17 is missing

Do you all hate this episode with a vengance? I can see that there are some glaringly painful bits to endure, but surely, it has its good points as well. I had posted a huge, rambling discourse on the subject, but it disappeared into the ether when it was submitted. Just as well, I hear you say )
Seriously, am i alone in not thinking that it sucked?

Most people I think agreed that the "B" story line was alright in that episode. It was the cheese flavor left in your mouth over Garibaldi's whole storyline that makes Grey 17 stand out in fan's minds as being the example that even a genius can make a mistake.

It'a another case where the gravity of the "B" story heavily outweighs the "A" story... TKO is another example - we are more ineterested in the human story of Ivanova's loss, than we are of Garibaldi's buddy busting "snakeheads".

Similarly, we are more intrigued by the intrigue within the power structure of the rangers... and subsequently, Marcus' seemingly futile but desperate struggle to fight for that which he holds dear.

Agreed Grey 17, Garibaldi/Freddy Krueger A story - not executed as well as it could've been. Neroon/Marcus B story - excellent.

TKO, however, although I used to hate the Garibaldi/Walker A story, I have come to appreciate it the last couple times I saw it.

Grey 17 is Missing doesn't really fall apart until the Zerg scene, the physically impossible method of dispatching it, and Garibaldi's abrupt and otherwise unexplained return. Then it rallies with the last scenes.

Jeremiah's ramblings are basically Delenn's, only delivered by someone who's apparently stoned, and therefore rather amusing.

I like it, including the A plot. Garibaldi doesn't get to solve mysteries very often, and there's a lengthy list of episodes I enjoy less than Grey 17. It just has been saddled with a reputation for being a stinker (same as Infection, TKO and Grail, which I also tend to enjoy a lot more than certain other episodes).

I don't care much for the Garibaldi/Jeremiah storyline, but the parts with Marcus and Neroon were excellent!

KoshFan said:

Grey 17 is Missing doesn't really fall apart until the Zerg scene,

Click to expand...

You mean Zarg... Zerg was the Vaderesque purple dude from Toy Story 2. Now if he'd have shown up in Grey 17... it would have been just totally off the wall!

Anyone notice that the similarity in the Zarg costume and the Ikaaran war machine?

Anyone notice that the similarity in the Zarg costume and the Ikaaran war machine?

Click to expand...

Yeah, we weren't supposed to know that according to the script. JMS' direction was that the Zarg would be basically unseen ... a few tiny glimpses here and there in darkness and shadow. It was only when John Flinn (otherwise known as the Prince of Darkness apparently) decided to throw a massive spotlight on the creature right from the off.

Having said all that, it still wouldn't have rescued it from the idiotic resolution with the steam powered bullets.

One of the few moments in B5 to genuinely make me go "WTF?".

I have to admit Grey 17 wasn't one of my favorites....

GaribaldisHair said:

Having said all that, it still wouldn't have rescued it from the idiotic resolution with the steam powered bullets.

One of the few moments in B5 to genuinely make me go "WTF?".

Click to expand...

His consulting friends from NASA must have been on vacation that week.

Ok fair enough, but while a lot of people were predictably (and correctly) riling against the whole shoddy business of the Garibadi, Jeremiah and the Zarg, others were standing up for the Marcus and Neroon action, in my view, also a predictable and correct assertion.
Here's the thing though, the bits that were the most poignant to me were, the scene with Rathenn and Delenn lamenting the loss of Ranger One, and the one with Delenn and Sheridan, as she reflected on the days her father used to carry her to temple when she was young.
The scene where Delenn picks up Sinclair's personal effects, might have been a little bit for the fans, a final farwell to Sinclair if you like, Delenn taking posession of his medal for the batle of the line and the ranger pin in the same breath, Rathenn musing on the short term nature of their association. quality.
As for the plot of the episode, well, does anyone remember, I think it was on the old B5 warner brother's site, when our Mr A M Swallow, caused much confusion in the ranks with three words, Radio Play Gun?

RMcD said:

I like it, including the A plot.

Click to expand...

Likewise.

RMcD said:

Garibaldi doesn't get to solve mysteries very often, and there's a lengthy list of episodes I enjoy less than Grey 17. It just has been saddled with a reputation for being a stinker (same as Infection, TKO and Grail, which I also tend to enjoy a lot more than certain other episodes).

Click to expand...

The only part of Grey 17 is Missing that is truly awful, is how the Zarg is killed. Steam activated bullets?

1. The bullets would not have fired.
2. The bullets would not have gone off one-after-the-other, as if being fired from a functioning gun.
3. The bullets, IF they had fired (and they wouldn't have), would have gone off almost simultaneously in a chain reaction.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Steam~~ Bullet 1 Bullet 2 Bullet 3 Bullet 4 Bullet 5 Bullet 6
------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet 1 would have gone off, hitting Bullet 2, which then would have gone off and hit Bullet 3, etc. etc., all within a fraction of a second after Bullet 1 going off. The result would have been:

1. the pipe exploding in Garibaldi's hands, or
2. the blast wave partly progagating backwards toward the steam source, a loud bang, and five bullets tumbled/stuck in the pipe, and ~maybe~ Bullet 6 coming out at relatively slow speed,
and
3. the Zarg dying of laughter.


The only part of the whole thing that had even the slightest shred of realism was the inaccuracy of the unrifled, too large a diameter pipe.

Still, all of that amounts to only a very small portion of the episode, timewise. So, I can overlook it and enjoy 99% of the episode.



Regarding Infection, TKO and Grail, I like them as well. You wouldn't have to twist my arm to get me to watch any of these four episodes (Grey 17 is Missing makes four.) I like Infection for David McCallum, and the technology introduced. I very much like Grail. TKO, well it's watchable, not much really there, but it's watchable.



The only ones you would have to twist my arm to get me to watch are:
Believers
To Live and Die in Starlight
and
the "Byron" scenes.

Yeah I'm a big Grail fan... and isn't interesting that the one race that might well have an inkling to the Grail's whereabouts if it is off planet, is the one that we Aldous gets pulled away from before being able to ask. Isn't it also interesting that Kosh actually agreed to the meeting?

Galahad said:

Yeah I'm a big Grail fan... and isn't interesting that the one race that might well have an inkling to the Grail's whereabouts if it is off planet, is the one that we Aldous gets pulled away from before being able to ask. Isn't it also interesting that Kosh actually agreed to the meeting?

Click to expand...

So close and yet so far. Too bad "Thomas" didn't follow up on that. ...or maybe he did, and we just never saw it.

Dru said:

As for the plot of the episode, well, does anyone remember, I think it was on the old B5 warner brother's site, when our Mr A M Swallow, caused much confusion in the ranks with three words, Radio Play Gun?

Click to expand...

I can remember describing the radiation from and to the sun in 'The Deconstruction of Falling Stars' as being a radio play gun - if the script does not tell you the audience does not know who fired it. I am surprised if I applied it to the plot of 'Grey 17 is Missing', although it may have applied to the time travel episodes.

I have to admit, I loved "grail".

They made a very satisfying thump.

hypatia said:

I have to admit, I loved "grail".

They made a very satisfying thump.

Click to expand...

The satisfying thumps came in "A Late Delivery From Avalon"

Easy to get confused because of the Arthurian theme though.

Oh goodness, of course!

Thanks for the correction. It really is time I finish my B5 set of DVDs and rewatched the series.

You know, I think what the usual suspects have in common is that they tend to be episodes that JMS himself has said he's not 100% happy with (and even then he's usually quite equivocal about it). I found this on the Lurker's guide:

'I don't think I've really said that much about "Grail." The trick, though, is that I don't approach the episodes in quite the same way that a viewer does. I have somewhat different agendas and goals, and there are times when hassles in *doing* the episode -- which in no way affect the show itself - - affects my *perception* of the episode.
I did a small screening of "Grail" here about a week ago, to get some other reactions, and they were all very positive; they enjoyed the episode quite a bit. (Similarly, there were people who thought that "Infection" was one of the best of the season.) There is *no one* who is harsher in critiquing the episodes than I am. I want each one to be absolutely perfect. And sometimes that means that I see flaws that no one else ever will.

In any event, I definitely want people to come at this from an open minded point of view. For reasons that have nothing to do with Christy's script, it still isn't one of my all-time favorite episodes; if I said otherwise, I'd be lying through my teeth. But different opinions are what makes horse races, and as stated, most of those who've seen it so far *do* like it, so at the moment I'm considerably outnumbered.... '

Click to expand...

and on Grey 17:

'"Walkabout," for me, is a good episode with a very few clunky parts; for me, it's a middle of the road episode. "Grey" falls a bit short of that, for me. But then, I'm very hard on my shows; a lot of folks have liked "Walkabout" a *lot*. I didn't much like "Infection," but many did; and some shows I love dearly, like "Geometry," don't catch on. It's subjective. And where you say the battle falls short, others like it...so on one level, I'd caution against applying your standard as an objective one that is somehow more true than another, and thus asking "what's wrong with *you* that I had this opinion?" If everyone on the planet shares that opinion, then you've got something. Otherwise....'

...

'I think it's about 3/4ths of a good episode. Where it falls down, for me, is the Zarg...I just have this constant desire to go to everyone's house and personally apologize....'

Click to expand...

Those are just some edited highlights. John Copeland also criticised David Warner's performance in Grail on the Babylon Podcast recently. Interesting what JMS says about Geometry of Shadows.. is there anyone out there who doesn't like that episode?