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Old March 3rd 09, 19:54   #151
Chilli
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

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This is something else that has been bugging me and I do think is a major flaw in the show. When in base, or Echo, form, none of the dolls have a personality, therefore they have no will of their own. They have no desire, feelings, hang-ups, etc.. For that reason it would be impossible to get them to do anything, they wouldn't run and keep in shape because they have no motivation to do it, nor do they have any motivation to refuse. Their complete lack of personality and any sort of personal compass means they would just vegetate all the time.
Implant them with fitness-freak personalities 3-4 hours a day. Job done.
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Old March 3rd 09, 19:58   #152
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

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I don't think that's been made clear at all. Especially when tech moron goes on his explanations about the tech and what it does, and not to rag on the show ton but that's another problem so far, the tech seems both incredibly flawed and an absolute failure in how it operates. Back to the topic though, in order for them to work out, care about others, they would need an active personality, one that can grow and learn, not one that is stagnant and lifeless. Without personality growth there is no need for them to work out, be active, learn, because they literally have no personality to grow. This is ideally a great area for discussion within the show, but I don't know if the show will ever go there, instead it seems as if it will give us the shoddy "blank" personalities with no explanation ever given about how they operate or any in-show discussion on the purpose and intent of these personalities.

More to the point, they have no idea what fun is, because knowing that something is fun would mean an inherent ability to learn and discover the idea of fun, and then to seek out new ways of having fun. The dolls lack the personality when in basic state to know what fun is or to want to seek out other fun activities, because that means a learning cycle and that means yet another flaw in the tech system. As I said above if they explored why this is a flaw and went into the philosophical and technical conundrums this represents then that would be great, but I don't see them ever doing that.
Except it's being very strongly hinted at that the "blank personality" isn't so blank as we are being led to believe. Echo is far more cognizant than the "blank personality" portrays.
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Old March 3rd 09, 20:09   #153
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

Well, Echo's also given to be unusual... I think the key element here is that the Actives do have a personality in between missions. After all, they all recognize Topher right away when they wake up from a wipe, and they don't have trouble finiding their way around the Dollhouse, so it's not an actual memory erasure -- more like a memory replacement. Basically they have a "interim" personality that's used to the Dollhouse and its people, and then Topher swaps that out for whatever he's whipped up this week.

And Chilli's right -- no need for them to "learn" what's fun if Topher simply programs them to enjoy something.
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Old March 3rd 09, 20:25   #154
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

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Except it's being very strongly hinted at that the "blank personality" isn't so blank as we are being led to believe. Echo is far more cognizant than the "blank personality" portrays.
Echo is the exception to the rule I do believe, otherwise there's really no point in the show. Having all the dolls be cognizant like Echo would make for a very dull show indeed.
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Old March 3rd 09, 20:36   #155
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

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Echo is the exception to the rule I do believe, otherwise there's really no point in the show. Having all the dolls be cognizant like Echo would make for a very dull show indeed.
If you saw the final scene of this last episode, Echo and Sierra exchanged a very knowing glance that suggested it's not just Echo. In the Pilot Echo said, "Have you ever tried to wipe a slate clean, there's always something left behind" (paraphrased). Plus, they have "the attic" to store the Actives that don't "work right" anymore, and then there's Alpha going on a murdering rampage. This all adds up to me, to suggest the remnants of personality left over after a wipe, are very much a part of the current overall Arc.

Spoilers below for those who avoid previews:









However, what's confusing is in the next episode, Echo gets wiped remotely, so I'm not sure how that works into my understanding/belief of where the show is going.
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Old March 3rd 09, 20:50   #156
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

I didn't take that scene like you did. I took it as Sierra acknowledging Echo because of the earlier working out bonding moment while Echo shrugged her off because she is becoming aware of the bigger picture.
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Old March 3rd 09, 21:43   #157
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yeah, I wouldn't read too much into Echo's headshake just yet. Sign of things to come? Sure. Not much there yet, though. I think she was mostly shaking Sierra off because she remembered Sierra's handler -- standing right there -- wasn't a nice man.
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Old March 3rd 09, 22:26   #158
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

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Yeah, I wouldn't read too much into Echo's headshake just yet. Sign of things to come? Sure. Not much there yet, though. I think she was mostly shaking Sierra off because she remembered Sierra's handler -- standing right there -- wasn't a nice man.
I may indeed be reading too much into it (LOL, wouldn't be the first time I've doen that with a show), but, in order for Echo to have "warned" Sierra, there had to be something she was concerned about, and she had to expect Sierra to understand her warning, so, I'm at a loss as to what it might have been all about, if not a warning not to reveal they know things?
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Old March 4th 09, 04:41   #159
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

Sierra's handler had pointedly remarked he didn't want her hanging out with Echo, for fear Echo would "rub off on her." And Sierra's handler was right there. So Echo knows they aren't supposed to be around each other -- at least not while the handler is watching.
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Old March 7th 09, 03:14   #160
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Re: New Joss Whedon show

I liked tonight's episode, but then I guess that shouldn't be too much of a surprise given that I've liked what I've seen so far on this show. I missed the second episode, so I didn't get anything about Alpha until tonight. I'm intrigued to say the least; gotta have a good antagonist in a story, and Alpha seems to be setting up to be one to some degree.

I think there were a lot of little moments in this episode that can easily be overlooked but when examined in and of themselves present some ponderant moments, like Echo and the dude discussing the painting and why it looked the way it did. There were a lot of tonal bits about being broken and what constitutes being whole. It serves for a nice metaphor for people who deal with major psychological problems and how we view the concept of self.

I hope the show doesn't get canceled because I want to see more.
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