Subtle Foretelling

Periodically JMS gave hints of what was to come in the B5 story. WWE particularly annoyed some fans because of its (misleading) leaps into the future. Some of the foretelling are very subtle. In the very first episode, Midnight on the Firing Line, Londo tells Sinclair, "in twenty years one of us will be older and wiser and one of us will be dead. Who's to say?" Since Sinclair was/will be Valen, he will certainly be very old in 20 years and wise enough to provide a political, religious and cultural philosophy that would guide Minbari society for a thousand years. And, Londo will be dead, as he also predicted in this episode. Have you noticed other incidents of JMS foretelling his story?

QMCO5

I'm really weak in the B5 department, I must confess. But even I know that he hinted at the ultimate fate of Sinclair when it came to the pilot episode. ("Entilzah Valen" or something like that.)

One of the amazing points about this series is that he did forplan so much of this series. How many hints he gave, and just where they were, I'll leave to the trivia experts.

I'm just glad that he gave us a story that actually built to some conclusion that was worked out in advance.

I don't know if any other science fiction series had ever done that before.

Oddly enough, Kosh's greeting that Hypatia mentioned was, IIRC, *not* in the original airing of The Gathering. Rather, it was added in when they did the TNT special edition (so to speak) of the pilot. From what I recall, JMS had planned to have it in there originally, but decided to leave it out of the initial airing to avoid such a "blatant" (ahem) spoiler so early on.

I could go digging up the posts on jmsnews.com to that effect, but I'm sure JdM could beat me to it

I'm just glad that he gave us a story that actually built to some conclusion that was worked out in advance.

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I'll second, third and fourth that motion.

On an aside, has anyone noticed that such planning is pretty much the antithesis of the Star Trek way of doing things? It almost seems that Berman & Co go out of their way sometimes to *avoid* planning ahead.

But then, that may just be me.

Cheers,
--mcn

There are a few things I caught while watching Season 1 again. Of course, I can't remember a darn one of them now. I'll have to get back to ya, but I think JMS had a lot of foreshadowing goin on.

I didn't know that Capt. Neville. Thanks. So that wasn't in there originally. Actually, now that you mention it, I think Joe D or someone else did say this some time ago.

Hmm. My Dory memory is kicking in again.

As far as foreshadowing goes (I grin at the shadow part of that word ) the most obvious I suppose is Londo's vision of his death.

There's foreshadowing everywhere. The episode "Infection," while not one of the best, is particularly rich. We've got organic technology, mention of the sun going nova in the future, and Garibaldi telling the reporter how he and Sinclair met... which, of course, is very subtle foreshadowing for the Shadow ship on Mars and the Psi Corps problems. A lot of stuff was established very early on.

The episode "Infection," while not one of the best, is particularly rich.

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Plus we get the tag where Franklin and Ivanova muse about fanaticism, the idiocy of "racial purity" and the dangers of fooling around with advance technologies - just before the EarthForce BioWeapons division - no doubt already commanded by officers loyal to the xenophobe Morgan Clark - shows up to confiscate the artifacts and all the research. They'll still be cheerfully screwing around with these things long after Clark is gone and Matthew Gideon is trying to figure out where a certain ship came from. There's also the question of just who was attacked Ikarra-7 around a thousand years ago, which is what drove them to create such defenders in the first place, and whether they developed the organic technology all by themselves, or got a little help from their friends.

One of the subtlest forms of foreshadowing (which I think JMS really did with laserdiscs in mind since DVDs didn't exist and VHS doesn't have the resolution) is Universe Today. Do a freeze-frame any time you have a clear view of someone reading the paper and look at the headlines (and the articles that can sometimes be read.) In "Midnight" there is a headline about Psi-Corps violating its charter by endorsing a political candidate - Vice President Clark.

Regards,

Joe

In 'Signs and Portents' you have lady Adira's vision of the station blowing up, with the last shuttle just leaving.

'Sleeping in Light' anyone?

In 'Signs and Portents' you have lady Adira's vision of the station blowing up, with the last shuttle just leaving.

'Sleeping in Light' anyone?

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I think her name was Lady Ladira (or some such) because Londo's girlfriend was Adira. Anyway...

The future that she sees is not the actual future, however. The future she sees is the same one that Sinclair sees on B4 and the same one from which transmissions are picked up in WWE pt. 1. Throughout the show we are given POSSIBLE glimpses into POSSIBLE futures. We're never really clear on whether what we've seen is what actually comes to pass until afterwards. I think Delenn said, "Prophecy is a poor guide to the future." There's a lot of foreshadowing, but JMS was careful not to give away too much.

One of the subtlest forms of foreshadowing (which I think JMS really did with laserdiscs in mind since DVDs didn't exist and VHS doesn't have the resolution) is Universe Today. Do a freeze-frame any time you have a clear view of someone reading the paper

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Or during The Gathering freeze frame when the assissin opens a particular door and see whose identity is being recognized (by reading the display screen attached to the card reader).

I thought the future Ladira saw was the actual future, just out of context. She saw a final shuttle leaving just before the station blew up. This fits Sinclair's flash in "Babylon Squared," but it also fits "Sleeping in Light" -- our characters leaving after a final once-around before the station is demolished for peaceful reasons.

Is it possible that Londo is the one old and wiser in twenty years, and Sinclair is the one long dead? How far in the future is Londo's death? How do the dates jibe?

And I think Delenn meant that you shouldn't do something because you *think* it could fulfill a prophecy. You should do what you think is right, and the rest will attend to itself.

Whoops, I just realized someone else brought up the Sleeping in Light interpretation. My bad.

I've seen the interpretation that when Marcus says "then the qustion is: Who is Morgana LeFey?" at the end of A Late Delivery From Avalon, the answer is Anna Sheridan (who will be coming to tempt Sheridan).

In the very first episode, Midnight on the Firing Line, Londo tells Sinclair, "in twenty years one of us will be older and wiser and one of us will be dead. Who's to say?"

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It's tough to be certain, but I believe Londo is referring to himself and G'Kar in that statement, not Sinclair.

In the very first episode, Midnight on the Firing Line, Londo tells Sinclair, "in twenty years one of us will be older and wiser and one of us will be dead. Who's to say?"

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It's tough to be certain, but I believe Londo is referring to himself and G'Kar in that statement, not Sinclair.

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I think you're right.

Is it possible that Londo is the one old and wiser in twenty years, and Sinclair is the one long dead? How far in the future is Londo's death? How do the dates jibe?

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Londo's death is 20 years after "Midnight", just as he says. Londo dies in 2278, 16 years after the end of the Shadow War in 2261 (as he tells Sheridan.) So the dates are quite correct. As it happens, though, Londo is older and wiser and Sinclair is "long dead." Having travelled back in time in 2260 to take up his destiny in the 13th century, "Sinclair" as Valen has been dead for the around 900 years by the time of Londo's death.

Regards,

Joe

I thought the future Ladira saw was the actual future, just out of context. She saw a final shuttle leaving just before the station blew up. This fits Sinclair's flash in "Babylon Squared," but it also fits "Sleeping in Light" -- our characters leaving after a final once-around before the station is demolished for peaceful reasons.

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IIRC, what Ladira sees is a shuttle that barely escapes being blown up with the rest of the station. I always figured that this explosion happened because Garibaldi "rigged the fusion reactors" like Ivanova said in her transmission from the future (or because the Shadows finally just shot it to heck). Of course we know that the actual explosion that claimed the station was not from an attack or from sabotage - it was pre-planned. I'm sure that whoever was in charge of the decomissioning ceremony made sure that a shuttle containing the President of the Interstellar Alliance, the leader of the Rangers, the Centauri Emperor, one of the richest men on Mars, and a group of other not-quite-as-important people was a VERY safe distance from the 5-mile-long exploding space station. I'm sure that someone would have rigged the explosion to detonate at a pre-planned time or by remote control - safety first, you know.

And I think Delenn meant that you shouldn't do something because you *think* it could fulfill a prophecy. You should do what you think is right, and the rest will attend to itself.

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Exactly right. Delenn may have had some insight into the future, but did not know what events would bring that future about. All she could do was what she thought best at the moment. Like G'Kar tells Catherine Sakai, "We do what we do because it seems like a good idea at the time." We may have glimpses into the future (through prophecy or whatever) but they're usually given to us out of context. We don't know what events will carry us to that point in the future or drive us away from it. All we can do in concentrate on "now." Dreaming and/or worrying about the future is futile...by doing what is right in the present, I am actively laying the road for my future.

Londo's death is 20 years after "Midnight", just as he says. Londo dies in 2278, 16 years after the end of the Shadow War in 2261 (as he tells Sheridan.)

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Hey Joe, you are correct on the dates, but the time in-between the end of the Shadow War and when Londo dies is 17 not 16. The way I keep it straight is to remember that David Sheridan is born in December 2262 and is given the urn in December of 2278.

I wanted to clear this matter up because it seems within the Babylon 5 fan community, and a few of jms's own postings to be a matter of debate and confusion. However, the actual dates on the episodes and movies fit together.

IIRC, what Ladira sees is a shuttle that barely escapes being blown up with the rest of the station. I always figured that this explosion happened because Garibaldi "rigged the fusion reactors" like Ivanova said in her transmission from the future (or because the Shadows finally just shot it to heck).

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I believe jms has maintained (not quite sure where) that we never knew the context of what Lady Ladira was showing Sinclair - until the SiL, that is. Furthermore, the context (and how fast the camera was panning out) of vision in 'Signs and Portents' gave the impression that the ship was barely escaping, but as we know from SiL what actually happened was not that kind of dramatic exit.

However, (and I can back this part up) the future of B5 that we saw in 'Babylon Squared' and the first part of WWE 1 was avoided due to the events in WWE parts 1 & 2.

Just a small correction because it's niggling me

The seer/prophetess/widow of the Emperor was Lady Morella, not Lady Ladira.

Adira Tyree was the slave girl who tried to steal Londo's files in 'Born to the Purple', who was later killed (indirectly) by Morden, to drive Londo into a pact with the Shadows.

The seer/prophetess/widow of the Emperor was Lady Morella, not Lady Ladira.

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From what I've read, the thread-talk is about Lady Ladira, the seer that visited Londo during the first season of the show during the episode "Signs And Portents" that showed Sinclair a vision she had of Babylon 5 blowing up.