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Old November 2nd 07, 13:27   #31
Jan
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

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I had the landing of the Icarus in mind, and his subsequent transformation by the Shadows. The old Morden is "dead", so to speak. I think it doesn't matter that he got heated up sometime later ;-)
If you want to stretch the logic that far you might as well say that he 'died' when he lost his wife. Morden didn't get transformed on Z'ha'dum, he was just open to becoming their servant.

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Old November 2nd 07, 15:08   #32
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

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I had the landing of the Icarus in mind, and his subsequent transformation by the Shadows. The old Morden is "dead", so to speak. I think it doesn't matter that he got heated up sometime later ;-)
Londo's killing Morden wasn't one of his missed chances, as I see it. What got Londo that keeper was his blowing up of the Southern continent to wipe out the Drakh, wasn't it? Killing Morden had nothing directly to do with it.
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Old November 2nd 07, 20:41   #33
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

^ Yep. That's exactly what I said. Officially, the one who is already dead is Sheridan. Surrendering yourself to your greatest fear is G'Kar killing Londo.

I think the point is you have to see it from a centauri perspective, only, not a B5 big picture perspective. The eye that does not see [the greatness of the centauri] is G'kar. Londo saves the eye much earlier on, though at which point is debateable. Too many inconsistencies, too many interpretations.

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Old November 3rd 07, 10:10   #34
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

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Morden didn't get transformed on Z'ha'dum
No one leaves the same as they arrived.

Of course, it's a bit of a stretch to say that Morden is dead, and the prophecy is clearly referring to Sheridan. I just like KoshFan's interpretation somehow.
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Old November 3rd 07, 11:27   #35
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

Given how Sheridan spends so much time in 'In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum' running around shouting at everybody about how Morden is already dead, legally speaking, I assumed it was Morden right up until JMS contradicted it. And I think I agree with KoshFan that it makes more sense for it to be Morden, since Londo does actually kill him, and after failing to save G'Kar's eye this sets him nicely upon the path towards his one final chance for redemption.

But the guy who wrote it is JMS, and the only one who fits that description would be JMS.

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Old November 3rd 07, 12:59   #36
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

Maybe it could be Morden as 'not kill the man who is already dead' and that Londo missed this chance for redemption too; if his final 2 acts of not killing Sheridan and then letting G'Kar kill him is the part of the SAME decision. Londo gets his keeper pist so can free Sheridan, but in order to keep this a secret from the Drakh he must get G'Kar to kill him AND the keeper. So freeing Sheridan is not 'not kill the man who is already dead', as these 2 final decisions are what make up the single 'surrendering himself to his greatest fear' act... is just that he happened to not kill Sheridan in the process.

I guess you could also argue that it was the keeper that wanted to kill Sheridan at the time too, it was not actually Londo's decision.
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Old November 3rd 07, 13:07   #37
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

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I guess you could also argue that it was the keeper that wanted to kill Sheridan at the time too, it was not actually Londo's decision.
It doesn't matter who decided to kill Sheridan any more than it mattered who decided to pluck out G'Kar's eye. What mattered was what Londo did or didn't do to save each.

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Old November 3rd 07, 13:45   #38
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

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And I think I agree with KoshFan that it makes more sense for it to be Morden, since Londo does actually kill him, and after failing to save G'Kar's eye this sets him nicely upon the path towards his one final chance for redemption.
I still don't understand why people think that Londo's not killing Morden would somehow have redeemed Londo. Killing Londo isn't wheal sealed Centauri Prime's fate, either, it was the blowing up of the Southern Continent. And if Londo hadn't done that (and fate stepped in), I hardly see him coming out being, in any way, redeemed.

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Old November 3rd 07, 15:57   #39
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

Quick hello, as I'm new here (but not at all to B5)- sorry for jumping in like this

I always thought that the "you must save the eye that does not see" wasn't referring literally to G'Kar's eye (for if that were the case, Londo wouldn't have saved an eye that "does not see" - G'Kar's eye did see before it was plucked out - also I don't see what would have been different if he had saved it), but rather metaphorically speaking to G'Kar himself. The point he saved him I think was the bargain they made when G'Kar was captured.

As for the "one who was already dead" I also think it was Sheridan, whom he saved by allowing them to flee.

What's also puzzling me is the part about "You still have three opportunities to avoid the fire that waits for you at the end of your journey. [...] Now if you have failed all the others, that is your final chance for redemption." I'm not at all sure about the final part: this could be either accepting the Keeper, or letting himself be killed by G'Kar, or even apologising to G'Kar in "the long night of L.M." I think it's most likely the Keeper.

What is odd is indeed that according to this interpretation, he didn't quander his chances No. 3 and 4, however, I think it also depends what is meant by "the fire that awaits you at the end of your journey" and "your final chance for redemption". If he hadn't saved G'Kar and Sheridan, what would have happened? He would have still accepted the Keeper. I don't quite understand the meaning of the acceptance of the Keeper, though. How does accepting the Keeper mean he is redeemed? Or is it merely that he is accepting the price for his poor choices, that he ends up a slave in the end?

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Old November 3rd 07, 19:01   #40
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Re: "do not kill the one who is already dead" niggle

Hello... welcome aboard. That's something that has intrigued me too... about saving G'Kar and not his literal eye.

Maybe the script was originally meant to say something like:

"you have a threefold opportunity to find redemption" not three separate chances.

That would then sew up things pretty nicely... dontcha think?
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