B5TV.COM. Babylon 5 forums Babylon 5 message for the fans from Claudia Christian Babylon 5

Go Back   B5TV.COM > Babylon 5, Crusade and Rangers > B5.world

View Poll Results: Would you re-buy the first 5 seasons of B5 if they updated the CGI? (as shown in TLT)
Yes 9 31.03%
No 12 41.38%
Maybe 8 27.59%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 21st 07, 12:13   #11
RMcD
First One
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 373
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raw_bean View Post
The story is sacrosanct, but the shiny packaging is not. I wouldn't view it as tampering with the Mona Lisa, so much as dusting her off, putting her in a brand new frame with UV protective and non-reflective glass, in a better lit and more neatly arranged gallery.
I would view it as more like calling in a comittee of artists to overpaint a bright and glossy new background to the Mona Lisa, taking advantage of the opportunity to add in modern improvements like highways and aeroplanes, expanding the whole thing out to a 16:9 ratio and feeling mighty tempted to fix that smile while they're at it.
RMcD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st 07, 13:06   #12
Sindatur
Techno-mage
 
Sindatur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,519
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

I'm not really against the concept of sprucing it up a bit, nor against the concept of watching the spruced up versions, but, I've already spent about $500 for my B5 collection, and there's nothing wrong with it, so, to me, it's not worth investing another $500 or more to upgrade it.
__________________
One Day I hope to be the man my Cat thinks I am

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Sindatur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st 07, 14:17   #13
hypatia
First One
 
hypatia's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 27,435
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raw_bean View Post
I definitely would, if they were done to a high quality and with appropriate reverence/respect to the original intent.

The story is sacrosanct, but the shiny packaging is not. I wouldn't view it as tampering with the Mona Lisa, so much as dusting her off, putting her in a brand new frame with UV protective and non-reflective glass, in a better lit and more neatly arranged gallery.
So the story is sacrosanct, but the acting, the cinematography, all of this is just dusting this off?

I can see how some fans might go for improved special effects. I happen to think there is a lot of charm to the older sci-fi series. Care to see Twilight Zone colorized?

But I admit, fans' outrage would be in proportion with the amount of actualy tampering done. Has a character's fundamental nature (at the beginning of the saga) been changed by re-editing? If it's a "Han Solo" then I'd say that's just a really stupid thing to do. EVERYONE knows that Han, by his nature at this point in his life, was the guy who "shot first", right?

And EVERYONE knows that at the end of Return of the Jedi it was really an older actor (the guy in the suit) who played briefly the spirit of Vadar after his death. No, now it's a grinning idiot, who for some reason doesn't seem to have gone to the spiritual plane with all of his life's experiences, or something. Obi Wan came through as an old man image, but good old Darth Vadar looks like he's about 9, there.

So I guess I'm saying that I think a lot more goes into a show or a movie than just the writing.
__________________
"If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal."
-- Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot
hypatia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st 07, 21:43   #14
Jade Jaguar
First One
 
Jade Jaguar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Ann Arbor, Mi, USA
Posts: 9,727
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcD View Post
I would view it as more like calling in a comittee of artists to overpaint a bright and glossy new background to the Mona Lisa, taking advantage of the opportunity to add in modern improvements like highways and aeroplanes, expanding the whole thing out to a 16:9 ratio and feeling mighty tempted to fix that smile while they're at it.
You do realize that JMS intended for B5 to be shown in a 16x9 aspect ratio, but was not able to compose the CGI in a 16x9 format, and tried to compensate by not having any important CGI outside a 16x9 frame? One can argue about the result, and how successful he was, but surely you realize that was his intent?

Given that, and given that there would be NO Lucas-like changing of story elements, what would be wrong if the existing CGI was faithfully recreated, using today's superior abilities? The only reasonable objection I can see is that the original CGI was innovative, and ahead of its time, and thus should be preserved. I do have some sympathy for that argument, but it bears no resembalance to your messing with the Mona Lisa analogy.
__________________
"Those who would give up essential liberty
to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin 1775

"I know that the hypnotized never lie... Do ya?"
Pete Townshend 1971

FREE LEONARD PELTIER
Jade Jaguar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st 07, 22:35   #15
RMcD
First One
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 373
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar View Post
You do realize that JMS intended for B5 to be shown in a 16x9 aspect ratio
Yes. I was making a point about change for the sake of change, not the widescreen thing in particular (after all, the aspect ratio is pretty irrelevant when it comes to the Mona Lisa).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar View Post
Given that, and given that there would be NO Lucas-like changing of story elements, what would be wrong if the existing CGI was faithfully recreated, using today's superior abilities?
I'm not sure I agree that the story is sacrosanct, but everything else is just shiny packaging. It seems to me like a disservice to Ron Thornton, Mitch Suskin, and all the other artists and designers (and they did consider themselves artists) who worked to compose those shots and to realise them on screen, not to mention the likes of Christopher Franke, Anne Bruice, John Iacovelli etc. who were responsible for other aspects of the production. Why is the story sacrosanct, but their work suddenly disposable?
RMcD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd 07, 00:32   #16
Jade Jaguar
First One
 
Jade Jaguar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Ann Arbor, Mi, USA
Posts: 9,727
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RMcD View Post

I'm not sure I agree that the story is sacrosanct, but everything else is just shiny packaging. It seems to me like a disservice to Ron Thornton, Mitch Suskin, and all the other artists and designers (and they did consider themselves artists) who worked to compose those shots and to realise them on screen, not to mention the likes of Christopher Franke, Anne Bruice, John Iacovelli etc. who were responsible for other aspects of the production. Why is the story sacrosanct, but their work suddenly disposable?
I certainly wasn't suggesting they change any music. If the people who did the original CGI are still in the biz, perhaps they could be hired to update the CGI, or one or more be hired as a consultant, or liason to the new CGI folks. But, at any rate, that part of your argument it getting very close to what I said I accept as a legitimate argument, that the for-the-time ground breaking work be preserved.

I think most of us would agree that the CGI isn't sharp enough to make it to the HD screen, and do justice to JMS' vision. That is why I think a faithful-to-the-original recreation of the CGI, for a HD release would be acceptable, and IMO, a fine thing. But, any new work should match the old work as closely as possible, without any real changes, just an improvement in the execution/resolution, which is allowed by today's tech.

BTW, I think the aspect ratio of the Mona Lisa is very important. I think it might be a golden rectangle, but it definitely wouldn't work W I D E.
__________________
"Those who would give up essential liberty
to purchase a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin 1775

"I know that the hypnotized never lie... Do ya?"
Pete Townshend 1971

FREE LEONARD PELTIER

Last edited by Jade Jaguar; August 22nd 07 at 02:10.
Jade Jaguar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd 07, 01:56   #17
Shabaz
Commander
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 134
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

I have made this argument before, but I might as well make it again.

I would love to see a new version of B5 that had its fully CG and comped shots redone. Not because I think the old version is bad; I think it is iconic and historically significant, and in fact I would actually like to see an extra containing the original uncropped version of that CG work if they should publish a new edition. No, I would like to see a new version because, in a sense, they already "messed" with it for the version we have now. And I would like to see some of the problems that created undone. Due to the original 'resolution independent' CG files being missing, the CG space scenes and the comped scenes had to be cropped from the old television broadcast, which was done at 480 lines, interlaced, and with an inferior telecine that picked up less detail.

Now, I actually love the way the widescreen elements of the DVDs look, and since it was originally intended to be that way, the "messed" above is in quotation marks. But one element that would've factored into that original vision, files capable of rendering the CG and comped shots wide or in any other resolution, are now missing. I'd be perfectly happy if they'd remade those for a proper SD release, looking exactly like the old ones, only not cropped this time.

But that isn't going to happen. What may happen is an HD version, and they really would need to redo the comped and CG shots for that. This would make me very happy. To me the space shots look all right as far as framing goes, though the cropping does make them look rather blurry. However, the scenes that have 16:9 shots mixed with comped 4:3 shots cropped to 16:9 of the same scene look really jarring to me. You can see how much is lost, and how big the difference in framing can be, here. Look at the screenshots provided for the How Much Quality Do We Lose For Composites section.

In addition, I would love to see the original film elements in a higher resolution, and with a better telecine and some work done on cleaning them up. There is a lot of noise and grain and dirt marks on the wide telecine we have now, and the technical means to clean those up exist. Instead they didn't even do some de-interlacing for the shots that required it, so a new version that had some attention payed to that would be really nice.

Finally, I wouldn't mind a new mix for the sound. What we have on the DVDs is a 5.1 surround mix with dedicated channels, but from what I understand all they really did was take the matrixed channel from the pro-logic mix and throw it on the back channels, and take the voice track and throw it on the center channel. I wouldn't mind a new mix that added some directionality, and used the dedicated channels more.

Last edited by Shabaz; August 22nd 07 at 02:03.
Shabaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd 07, 05:54   #18
maneth
Ambassador
 
maneth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 240
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

I won't buy any new B5 dvds unless they're released in some HD format, and for that new CGI would be necessary for reasons Shabaz posted above.
__________________
"Summoned, I come. In Valen's name I take the place that has been prepared for me. I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light."
- Delenn in Grey Council: "Babylon Squared"
maneth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd 07, 11:19   #19
RMcD
First One
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 373
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jade Jaguar View Post
I certainly wasn't suggesting they change any music. If the people who did the original CGI are still in the biz, perhaps they could be hired to update the CGI, or one or more be hired as a consultant, or liason to the new CGI folks. But, at any rate, that part of your argument it getting very close to what I said I accept as a legitimate argument, that the for-the-time ground breaking work be preserved.

I think most of us would agree that the CGI isn't sharp enough to make it to the HD screen, and do justice to JMS' vision. That is why I think a faithful-to-the-original recreation of the CGI, for a HD release would be acceptable, and IMO, a fine thing. But, any new work should match the old work as closely as possible, without any real changes, just an improvement in the execution/resolution, which is allowed by today's tech.
Yeah. In terms of keeping the original art intact, the ideal would be if the original objects, lighting and movement patterns had still been in existence and could be rerendered exactly as before in a higher resolution and 16:9 aspect ratio. Or as you say getting the same people back together to supervise a new definitive version, although I don't think that is very likely now. After that, the next best is to acknowledge that you are updating the effects only for the purposes of keeping up with new technology, and try to keep it as shot-by-shot close as possible.

But having thought about it some more, I'm not so sure it matters. I guess where the Mona Lisa analogy falls down is that as digital distribution takes over the original Mona Lisa is likely always going to be available alongside the updated version for the purists (ie. it's not actually being overpainted). George Lucas made himself unpopular by disowning his original versions and trying to wipe them from history. But I can't see anything wrong with having an alternative version, tastefully done, available alongside the original, the main thing is that the choice still exists for those who want to experience it as it originally was.
RMcD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd 07, 09:50   #20
raw_bean
Commander
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huddersfield, UK
Posts: 147
Re: Would you replace your DVD sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypatia View Post
So the story is sacrosanct, but the acting, the cinematography, all of this is just dusting this off?
That's stretching my analogy further than intended, in such a way as to be rather misleading. A remastered HD presentation with re-created CGI and composite shots would actually better present the acting and cinematography, and if the CGI was faithfully recreated it would better show off the design and composition work of the original CG artists.

Is suppose I should rather say the *intent* of the episodes (in story, acting, visuals, sound and music design, etc.) are sacrosanct, but merely some aspects of the technological implementation onto viewable media could be 'dusted off'. I don't want B5 to look different, I want it to look the same but better.
raw_bean is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 17:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2001 - 2008 B5TV.COM