Let's get the roots of the Family Tree

Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Here goes...Valen was the great-great-grandfather of Sheridan...Valen's Minbari wife was the great-great-grandmother of Delenn...DNA cannot be similar without similar origins...Humans and Minbari cannot be related without the above scenario...Delenn morphed into a semi-bonehead because she was part Minbari and part Human....Sheridan was simpatico with Vorlons because he had a ancestrial link to the Minbari who are indirectly related to the Vorlons....No matter what the 'CREATOR' says - even GOD's creation required incest...

Gary

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Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Um, you lost me.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

You lost me too...

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A proud member of the Wind Swords.
"War is life and death is the only true peace."

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

I don't know what's going on either.

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"I welcome you and present this place to you as a gift. I am called Valen, and we have much work ahead of us."
-Valen, War Without End Pt.2

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

There is no evidence that Sheridan and Sinclair (Valen) are related; except that they are both white men.

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Andrew Swallow

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Yeah, I'm lost too. Valen is Sheridan's super great whatever grandfather IN LAW, but not by actual genetics.

What are you on?

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Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

The only two people who are blood-related in B5, I think, are Delenn and Sinclair - Delenn is Sinclair-as-Valen's great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great-great- great-great-great-great-great-great-with-a-couple-of-distillations-on-numerous-sides- and-enough-cousin-numbers-to-choke-a-horse blood relative.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

[This message has been edited by channe (edited December 11, 2001).]

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

I gotta go with Channe on this one. The only concrete evidence we got here is old Minbari not born of Minbari sinclair who decided to turn his system into a genetic cocktail (whith the way I would love to know how they worked that one out!).
Now think about it, delenn had human dna in her system so when she entered the cocoon she was able to turn herself into a hybrid of some sorts, however, snclair had no minbari dna yet he entered the same machine and created "valen". Can anybody clear this one up for me?

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

I don't think the Chrysalis machine needs to have DNA of the thing you want to turn yourself into, really. I'm pretty sure you can program it.

All we know is that somehow, Valen got his DNA into the Minbari genetic pool. Most likely through children.

Strangely, though, we don't know if Valen had kids with a contemporary Minbari or with Catherine Sakai. There are a few clues that it's Sakai, but we'll never know for sure.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

The evidence indicates that the Chrysalis machine is capable of completely re-writing a person's DNA if programmed to do so.

In the case of Sinclair/Valen, it turned him into a Minbari.
For Delenn, it altered her for genetic compatibility with Humans, but retained some of her Minbari characteristics.

This indicates that the degree of the change is programmable.
Delenn wanted to make her changed status readily apparent, so she became an Obvious hybrid.

Sinclair/Valen wanted to look 100% Minbari, at least outwardly. He kept just enough Human DNA that his descendents could be identified by it.

And, yes, evidence from "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" combined with the final line in the Comic "In Valen's Name" makes it pretty clear that his wife as Valen, 1000 years in the past was an altered Catherine Sakai.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

An altered Catherine Sakai. Ooo, goody. I was hoping to hear that. At the center of my cynical, cold heart, I'm still a hopeless romantic...

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Channe, could you please avoid such things as:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great ... etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It tends to mess up the display when a single "word" exceeds the width of the screen.

Instead of "Wrapping", my browser tries to display the whole thing on one line and activates the horizontla scroll bar.

It makes the screen very difficult to read.
The eye tends to get lost going back and forth across the screen, especially when you are also scrolling the thing sideways.


Thanks.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

..Okay, here is what I think happened. First, the C-Machine (if it is a machine) obviously is a chromosome altering machine but not a DNA altering machine (yes - there is a difference) so the DNA was there either as a primary or recessed sequence. Second, John S. obviously had more going than suspected. He did have some telepathic abilities (at least with Kosh) and his travels in B4 had to be mind altering if not DNA altering (there was a time when he and Sinclair could have mingled temporial DNA and Zathrus did say something about The One which I believe meant that Sheridan and Sinclair are from the same roots). Plus, who is to say where he went when he went 'into the light', maybe back in time to be Sinclair's father?...I am not yet a time traveler so I cannot say for sure if infinity is circular but....So, yes, I might have missed a few generational Sinclair/Valen offspring but it seems obvious that Delenn and Sheridan are, at minimum, historically related even if just transcendentally...

Gary

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[This message has been edited by Dgarye (edited December 11, 2001).]

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Actually, I think you have just fixated on a concept that just, fundamentally, was not meant to be there. Sheridan and Sinclair are not related (except, as noted, eventually as a kind of ancient in-law status).

What “The One” means was debated a bit ago. The most obvious meaning is that they all three end up leading the Rangers at some time. They also all end up effecting their times. But it has nothing to do with blood relationships IMO.


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(Spirit): “If it is too hard a lesson for you to learn, then learn this lesson:”
[Shows emaciated children at his feet.] (Ebenezer): “Are these yours?” (Spirit): “They are Man’s. They cling to me for protection from their fetters. This boy is ignorance, this girl is want. Beware them both, but most of all, beware this boy.” (Ebenezer): “Have they no refuge, no resource?” (Spirit): “Are there no prisons, are there no workhouses?”

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Fixed!

Yeah, the fact that they're all The One has nothing to do with them being related.

It has everything to do with all of them being Entil'zha. Only they can be Entil'zha - anybody else is just Anla'shok Na.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Woo-hoo! Shadow nitpicking!

Thanks for bringing up an interesting matter, DGarye. While I find many of your assumptions (especially those about Sheridan) to be unfounded, the rest more than make up for it. I hope that you don't mind if I give them a healthy nitpicking.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Valen was the great-great-grandfather of Sheridan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Sinclair was a contemporary of Sheridan, he changed into a Minbari and traveled back in time. Oh sure, they had a common ancestor sometime in the Stone Age. Just like you and me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Valen's Minbari wife was the great-great-grandmother of Delenn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. She was an ancestor of Delenn, but was she completely Minbari? Did Sinclair manage to find Catherine Sakai? A spoiler from the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows":

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Catherine Sakai is lost on a mission near the Sector 14 time rift. After Sinclair's journey into the past, Marcus receives a letter from Valen. The message is simple: "I found her".</font></td></tr></table>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Humans and Minbari cannot be related without the above scenario.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can. Being related is defined as sharing some genes. The exchange does not have to be mutual. Numerous of the Minbari have some Human genes, but Humans have no Minbari genes (perhaps with the exception of David Sheridan).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Delenn morphed into a semi-bonehead because she was part Minbari and part Human.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt it. She became as Human as she could, but her Minbari physiology set limits to how far the transformation could go. See my guesses below. We don't know if having Human genes was essential, but it certainly was beneficial.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Sheridan was simpatico with Vorlons because he had a ancestrial link to the Minbari who are indirectly related to the Vorlons...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

There is no hint of the Minbari being related to Vorlons. Sheridan befriended Kosh for personal reasons. Kosh wanted to teach him something and kept annoying him, so Sheridan decided to find out what the damn pest had to say.

The Minbari have very probably been manipulated by Vorlons -- just like the Humans, Drazi, Brakiri and Vree. Practically everyone has been manipulated by the Vorlons, perhaps with the exception of the Centauri, Drakh and Pak'ma'ra (the latter probably ate the Vorlon who came to create telepaths).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>obviously is a chromosome altering machine but not a DNA altering machine<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Resolving incompatibilities on protein level would require going far deeper than chromosomes. Cutting and pasting chromosomes is something I could do with a few years of study and proper equipment (yes, I have already studied some biology).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Second, John S. obviously had more going than suspected. He did have some telepathic abilities (at least with Kosh)...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kosh first appeared into his dreams when Sheridan was in a tranquilized and delirious state after his abduction by the Streib. Kosh also appeared to G'Kar when he had taken dust. When Kosh was killed by the Shadows, some part of it remained alive in Sheridan. That last piece of Kosh died when attacking Ulkesh Naranek.

Sheridan did not become telepathic, but at least partially immune to telepathic control. Lyta did not notice him sneaking up to her. It may have been due to his encounter with Kosh or due to the modifications Lorien made to keep Sheridan alive.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>his travels in B4 had to be mind altering if not DNA altering<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aging is as much DNA altering as standing near a nuclear reactor. But for Sheridan, his brief disappearance did no harm.

To Sinclair it did great harm only because he and Garibaldi had participated in evacuating Babylon 4 -- with no adequate protection.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Plus, who is to say where he went when he went 'into the light', maybe back in time to be Sinclair's father?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would that be needed? It would have no point aside from practical jokes. Hardly a thing a dying man would even consider. It would be even less likely that Lorien would act as somebody's temporal taxi driver.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Zathrus did say something about The One which I believe meant that Sheridan and Sinclair are from the same roots<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What Zathras meant was that they are united in their task -- to end the Shadow wars. Given the need to survive, all of the younger races should have been united in that task.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>but it seems obvious that Delenn and Sheridan are, at minimum, historically related<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Delenn has always had some Human genes which she inherited from Valen. Sheridan is Human and thus very probably related to Sinclair. Whether their common ancestor lived in the stone or bronze age is irrelevant. They had a common ancestor just like you, me and every living thing on this planet, some exotic bacteria excluded.

It it less worthy of mention than the fact that Sheridan once had a bad cold, during which a malfunctioning adenovirus forgot a couple of genes into his cells.

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And now the speculating part:

From the point of view of modern biology, the chrysalis device is incredibly advanced. Changing a person's body in such a manner is impossible by todays standards, very likely to stay impossible forever.

Many kinds of animals undergo transformations, but these are all based on cells dying and others cells replacing them. A catepillar can transform into a butterfly, but very few of its original cells survive. Most are broken down or reorganized beyond recognition.

In case of a sentient being, there is a clear and unbreakable border to modifications. You can not rebuild the brain without destroying the personality. The chrysalis machine transformed Sinclair into a Minbari and Delenn into a Human, but preserved their personality and memories. This sets strict limits to what could have happened.

How could such a transformation be possible? How much of Delenn remained Minbari and how much of her became Human? I believe that this is a case where we should consider the easiest possibility true.

In my opinion it was like this: the rebuilding did not touch difficult things. The brain is an organ better left unmodified. Bones are impossible to break down and rebuild in adult form. The rest can be rebuilt freely.

Old lungs can be broken down while new ones grow. An old heart may be switched off when the new one has started functioning. But support structure must remain (which explains why Delenn's headbone also remained) and the brain must be left unmodified.

Even such a devious trick would leave difficult compatibility problems. Many genes would have to be deleted, added or rewritten. The new body would have to be able to sustain the old brain. This would explain a large portion of Human genome in Valen and a large number of Minbari genes in Delenn.

Great parts of the immune system would have to be modified -- essentially it would mean forcing two different immune systems co-exist in one body without attacking each other. Neural incompatibilities would have to be solved by heavy rebuilding in areas of the brain which act as an "interface" with the rest of the neural system. Memories and personality would remain unharmed, but adjusting to new senses and learning to use a new body would be quite difficult.

This is my humble opinion of how it could be done. Unbelievably difficult, but perhaps possible after a million years.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited December 11, 2001).]

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

I do not believe there is any evidence anywhere that Sheridan and Sinclair are even remotely related.

Valen got his human genes from Sinclair and Sinclair got his Minbari genes from the triluminary. It is not known who placed them there but it was Draal who supplied the machine and after all he was Minbari.

It was stated in Atonement that Delenn was a "child or Valen" as Channe stated a great-many-times-great descendent. Therefore Delenn is related to Sinclair.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

well shut my mouth!..I'll be in the car..

Gary

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Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Dgarye, After seeing all of B5 for the first time, and not having read any of the books, still haven't, I was convinced that David Sheridan and Jeffery David Sinclair were actually the same person. No one needs to debunk that theory for me now, it has been done, but based only on the books, so I accept that it is not true. But JMS seemed to give us clues that it was. That would mean that when the triluminary glowed for Delenn, it was really because Valen had her DNA, and not vice versa. We know that the Drakh are seeking revenge by going after David Sinclair, we know that they are powerful, aren't likely to give up, and certainly capable of making his life sheer hell, besides giving him a keeper. We know that Delenn tells John that David is safe. So how could they insure David's long term safety while he grew up? It seemed to me that they may have sent him back in time, given him to some trusted family to raise as their own, never knowing who his real parents were. That would explain the Minbari having human DNA, and Delenn and Valen sharing DNA. Okay, it didn't turn out to be true, but it still illustrates what I like so much about JMS's writing for B5. Most tv is so predictable, and is written in such a way that limits outcomes, but JMS opens new possibilities at every turn. Some happen, some don't.

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Re: Let\'s get the roots of the Family Tree

Now that I think about it, Jade Jaguar... given appropriate hints, I might have guessed the same way.

I just never approached the matter from this direction, seeing other hints and foreshadowings instead.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn