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Shadows and Time Travel
- Thread starter dmezynski
- Start date
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Kosh said, "If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die." because everyone who ever had gone there had died, or worse. If I say to you, "If you jump off the top of the Sears Tower you will die" and you do, that doesn't make me a seer, it just means I'm familiar with Newton's laws of motion. 
Also Kosh was trying to scare Sheridan out of going to Z'ha'dum before Kosh was ready to allow it. Kosh himself seemed to accept that Sheridan would eventually go in search of answers about Anna, but he intended to go with Sheridan, and believed his presence would save him. Hence his comment, "Yes, now" after the tells Sheridan the price of his help against the Shadows will be that he will not go with Shercan to Z'ha'dum.
This isn't exactly Paul Maud'Dib stuff here. He's talking about the eminently predictable possible outcomes of a concrete situation.
As for the Centauri - I'm not impressed. Some have prophetic dreams, but only of their own deaths. A few, exclussively female, have more general visions - but incohate, ambiguous ones. Londo doesn't know the context of his death dream. Lady Ladira doesn't know when or how B5 will be destroyed.
None of this is anyhting like the knowledge the Vorlons (or anyone else) would need to build the GM to control the time rift in sector 14 and hold it in readiness until Sinclair is ready to act.
I think we need to apply Occam's razor here, guys. The simplest explanation that fits the known facts is to be preferred. In this case that explanation is that the Vorlons built the GM where and when they did based on what Valen told them. Any explanation that depends on ablities the Vorlons never actually exhibited in the series or remote speculation is obviously less likely and should be given less weight. The fact is we don't need clairvoyant Vorlons to explain what we've seen, so why invent them?
Regards,
Joe
Also Kosh was trying to scare Sheridan out of going to Z'ha'dum before Kosh was ready to allow it. Kosh himself seemed to accept that Sheridan would eventually go in search of answers about Anna, but he intended to go with Sheridan, and believed his presence would save him. Hence his comment, "Yes, now" after the tells Sheridan the price of his help against the Shadows will be that he will not go with Shercan to Z'ha'dum.
This isn't exactly Paul Maud'Dib stuff here. He's talking about the eminently predictable possible outcomes of a concrete situation.
As for the Centauri - I'm not impressed. Some have prophetic dreams, but only of their own deaths. A few, exclussively female, have more general visions - but incohate, ambiguous ones. Londo doesn't know the context of his death dream. Lady Ladira doesn't know when or how B5 will be destroyed.
None of this is anyhting like the knowledge the Vorlons (or anyone else) would need to build the GM to control the time rift in sector 14 and hold it in readiness until Sinclair is ready to act.
I think we need to apply Occam's razor here, guys. The simplest explanation that fits the known facts is to be preferred. In this case that explanation is that the Vorlons built the GM where and when they did based on what Valen told them. Any explanation that depends on ablities the Vorlons never actually exhibited in the series or remote speculation is obviously less likely and should be given less weight. The fact is we don't need clairvoyant Vorlons to explain what we've seen, so why invent them?
Regards,
Joe
KoshN
Super Moderator
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
Technomages have shadowtech in them, grown into them, intertwined throughout their nervous system.
All the technomages were trying to master the tech, to bring it under their control. Rigid control was their way of preventing the Shadow (chaos) programming from having its way all the time. What Galen did was to free the tech of the Shadow (chaos) programming, and become one with the tech. At the end of The Passing of the Technomages trilogy ("Invoking Darkness" pg. 313-314), Galen is not "controlling" the tech. Rather, he has a symbiotic, synergistic, and very positive relationship with it. All Galen has to do is think of what he wants to happen, and if it's within the tech's ability, it...just...happens.
Re-read Invoking Darkness pg. 308 "It couldn't be true....." through pg. 314.
Er, Galahad - you do realize it is [a) technically possible and (b) perfectly acceptable to edit posts you are quoting from so that you don't reproduce the entire post in your reply, don't you?
True, but in both cases, and especially in ther former, the effect was deicdely negative. "Once you've been put inside one of those ships, you're never the same again." Frankin is never able to cure the teepsicles or find a safe way to remove their implants. The tech embedded in the Tecnhomage is also malign, in both its origins and its effects, until Galen is able to master it and bring it under his control. (And even then its origins remain a problem, as would have been seen in Crusade.)
Technomages have shadowtech in them, grown into them, intertwined throughout their nervous system.
All the technomages were trying to master the tech, to bring it under their control. Rigid control was their way of preventing the Shadow (chaos) programming from having its way all the time. What Galen did was to free the tech of the Shadow (chaos) programming, and become one with the tech. At the end of The Passing of the Technomages trilogy ("Invoking Darkness" pg. 313-314), Galen is not "controlling" the tech. Rather, he has a symbiotic, synergistic, and very positive relationship with it. All Galen has to do is think of what he wants to happen, and if it's within the tech's ability, it...just...happens.
Re-read Invoking Darkness pg. 308 "It couldn't be true....." through pg. 314.
babylonfan
Regular
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
In many ways the great machine seems similar to what we have seen in the series and read in the TM trilogy. Z'Ha'Dum was a great machine as well, controlled by "the Eye". This "Eye" needed a humanoid as central processor like the shadow ships.
Of course another option is that the Shadows just found Z'Ha'Dum and stole it from the original maker(s). This would also explain why the the machine acted in a way completely oposit the Shadow's philosophy once Galen removed the shadow programming. I mean, why would the shadows make a machine that goes against their philosphy, and then modify it.
Isn't it annoying that so many years after the series there are still mayor questions unanswered?
So perhaps the shadows did build the GM, and left a TechnoMage in charge. This TM would then have become one with the tech and removed the shadow programming so Draal could take over.Technomages have shadowtech in them, grown into them, intertwined throughout their nervous system.
All the technomages were trying to master the tech, to bring it under their control. Rigid control was their way of preventing the Shadow (chaos) programming from having its way all the time. What Galen did was to free the tech of the Shadow (chaos) programming, and become one with the tech. At the end of The Passing of the Technomages trilogy ("Invoking Darkness" pg. 313-314), Galen is not "controlling" the tech. Rather, he has a symbiotic, synergistic, and very positive relationship with it. All Galen has to do is think of what he wants to happen, and if it's within the tech's ability, it...just...happens.
Re-read Invoking Darkness pg. 308 "It couldn't be true....." through pg. 314.
In many ways the great machine seems similar to what we have seen in the series and read in the TM trilogy. Z'Ha'Dum was a great machine as well, controlled by "the Eye". This "Eye" needed a humanoid as central processor like the shadow ships.
Of course another option is that the Shadows just found Z'Ha'Dum and stole it from the original maker(s). This would also explain why the the machine acted in a way completely oposit the Shadow's philosophy once Galen removed the shadow programming. I mean, why would the shadows make a machine that goes against their philosphy, and then modify it.
Isn't it annoying that so many years after the series there are still mayor questions unanswered?
Londo also has that dream about the shadow vessels passing overhead, but I agree that they seem generally to be the kind of vague prophecy that only makes sense after the event, when it's too late to be any practical use.
One echo which I like to believe JMS put in deliberately, but which could be interpreted again as an intelligent guess on Kosh's part, was the 'in fire' response to Turhan's 'how will it end?' Later on when speaking of Centauri Prime's destruction, Cartagia uses a very similar form of words: 'Let it burn Londo, let it all end in fire.' This was only averted when Sheridan and Delenn ended the Shadow War, which might have altered the future that Kosh had foreseen (if that was indeed what he did). It wouldn't be the first time that a vision of a future disaster was averted. Of course Kosh doesn't have to be prophetic to know that eventually the Vorlons might end up having to use their planetkiller on Centauri Prime. Or he might simply have been making a wider comment on the way he thought the war would go (I love that so much of B5 is ambiguous like that).
On the other hand, perhaps the Centauri ability vauely to glimpse the future is just one step the natural evolution of every race, in the same way that all races eventually seem to discard their physical bodies..
puzzle
Regular
Reminds me that the answer Kosh gave... might have actually meant to tell Turhan how Kosh thought the Universe would finish its existence - in collapse or collision rather than expanding forever, according to whatever cosmological theory Vorlons might subscribe to.
That possibility of an answer occurred to me because, while watching the episode, I didn't see Turhan specifying what he meant by "it". And if you don't specify the subject when talking with a Vorlon, better prepare for any subject.
That possibility of an answer occurred to me because, while watching the episode, I didn't see Turhan specifying what he meant by "it". And if you don't specify the subject when talking with a Vorlon, better prepare for any subject.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
There is no need to link the Great Machine to the Shadows. The Great Machine needing a person to drive it is no different from a car or ship needing a person to drive it. The machine was built to serve its owner so it has some human compatible controls.
Galahad
Regular
I like to think that the prophetic nature of that dream comes to Londo because in a sense, part of him inside dies on the day the Shadows come to Centauri Prime. He realises the price of his errors and knows that in some way he has betrayed one of the few things he valued - patriotism to his homeworld.
KoshN
Super Moderator
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
SPOILERS FOR "THE PASSING OF THE TECHNOMAGES"
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The Shadows do this as a shortcut. They take existing organisms and either impose their will on that organism through circuitry and/or programming (e.g. the telepath bombs of "The Shadow Within," Shadow ship CPUs, and Technomage chrysalises and implants), and thereby get the organism to do their bidding <u>OR</u> use the existing organisms as <u>resources to be consumed</u> in the <u>growing</u> of shadowtech (e.g. technomage chrysalises and implants, and shadow ship components).
SPOILERS FOR "THE PASSING OF THE TECHNOMAGES"
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Technomages have shadowtech in them, grown into them, intertwined throughout their nervous system.
All the technomages were trying to master the tech, to bring it under their control. Rigid control was their way of preventing the Shadow (chaos) programming from having its way all the time. What Galen did was to free the tech of the Shadow (chaos) programming, and become one with the tech. At the end of The Passing of the Technomages trilogy ("Invoking Darkness" pg. 313-314), Galen is not "controlling" the tech. Rather, he has a symbiotic, synergistic, and very positive relationship with it. All Galen has to do is think of what he wants to happen, and if it's within the tech's ability, it...just...happens.
Re-read Invoking Darkness pg. 308 "It couldn't be true....." through pg. 314.
.....why would the shadows make a machine that goes against their philosphy, and then modify it.
The Shadows do this as a shortcut. They take existing organisms and either impose their will on that organism through circuitry and/or programming (e.g. the telepath bombs of "The Shadow Within," Shadow ship CPUs, and Technomage chrysalises and implants), and thereby get the organism to do their bidding <u>OR</u> use the existing organisms as <u>resources to be consumed</u> in the <u>growing</u> of shadowtech (e.g. technomage chrysalises and implants, and shadow ship components).
Sindatur
Regular
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
I agree that the Vorlons are the most likely of the races we know to have built the Great machine, but, as pointed out, the Shadows had a Great Machine of their own of sorts. So, I'm not entirely sure that either the Shadows built theirs on Zhadum, or the Vorlons built theirs on Epsilon 3. It's possible both were built by someone older, and they took control over the one in their own neighborhood, the Vorlons leaving Varn and the Zathrases as custodians of theirs, and the Shadows leaving their own minions in control of theirs.
I agree that the Vorlons are the most likely of the races we know to have built the Great machine, but, as pointed out, the Shadows had a Great Machine of their own of sorts. So, I'm not entirely sure that either the Shadows built theirs on Zhadum, or the Vorlons built theirs on Epsilon 3. It's possible both were built by someone older, and they took control over the one in their own neighborhood, the Vorlons leaving Varn and the Zathrases as custodians of theirs, and the Shadows leaving their own minions in control of theirs.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
It's been so long since I last saw Thirdspace, but wasn't there a shot of Vorlon space during Lyta's exposition of the artifact near the red, ringed Vorlon planet? We know that when the Vorlons fought against the Vorlons that had been telepathically possessed by the Thirdspace aliens, some of those possessed grabbed the artifact and chucked it into deep hyperspace to keep the non-possessed from destroying it. So, I'd say it drifted and had been for a long time far off regular hyperspace travel routes.
It's been so long since I last saw Thirdspace, but wasn't there a shot of Vorlon space during Lyta's exposition of the artifact near the red, ringed Vorlon planet? We know that when the Vorlons fought against the Vorlons that had been telepathically possessed by the Thirdspace aliens, some of those possessed grabbed the artifact and chucked it into deep hyperspace to keep the non-possessed from destroying it. So, I'd say it drifted and had been for a long time far off regular hyperspace travel routes.
puzzle
Regular
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
Which, surprisingly, reveals a limitation to the Vorlon civilization's formidable abilities.
Despite all the glory, losing the artifact suggests they have trouble combing hyperspace with a fine toothed comb. Space is apparently big, and hyperspace a pretty foggy place, even for them.
Which, surprisingly, reveals a limitation to the Vorlon civilization's formidable abilities.
Despite all the glory, losing the artifact suggests they have trouble combing hyperspace with a fine toothed comb. Space is apparently big, and hyperspace a pretty foggy place, even for them.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
Yeah, it was chucked into hyperspace by those controlled by the Thirdspace aliens in order to keep those that were not controlled from destroying it. I can't remember though, did Lyta say that Vorlons tried to find it after it was thrown into the depths of hyperspace, or did they just hope it'd stay lost forever and move on to other activities?
Yeah, it was chucked into hyperspace by those controlled by the Thirdspace aliens in order to keep those that were not controlled from destroying it. I can't remember though, did Lyta say that Vorlons tried to find it after it was thrown into the depths of hyperspace, or did they just hope it'd stay lost forever and move on to other activities?
Galahad
Regular
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
Interestingly in the book TDITCOS which is 100% canon, we learn that the rift in sector 14 is a natural phenomenon and that the vorlons and draal merely exploited it... and most interestingly the vorlons state that the Shadows would never attack Epsilon 3... which implies that they wouldn't even consider it.... despite becoming aware of the rift in Sector 14.
I don't think they would be worried about the Great Machine's defences, could it really stand up to a complete Shadow assault including Death Clouds? Ok so it could have knowledge of the infrastructure of a Shadow Cloud... but surely the Shadows could throw in enough firepower to protect their primary assault weapon.
I suspect it's either a reverence issue (again) or part of the rules of the game with the Vorlons
Interestingly in the book TDITCOS which is 100% canon, we learn that the rift in sector 14 is a natural phenomenon and that the vorlons and draal merely exploited it... and most interestingly the vorlons state that the Shadows would never attack Epsilon 3... which implies that they wouldn't even consider it.... despite becoming aware of the rift in Sector 14.
I don't think they would be worried about the Great Machine's defences, could it really stand up to a complete Shadow assault including Death Clouds? Ok so it could have knowledge of the infrastructure of a Shadow Cloud... but surely the Shadows could throw in enough firepower to protect their primary assault weapon.
I suspect it's either a reverence issue (again) or part of the rules of the game with the Vorlons
PillowRock
Regular
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
An issue of possible side effects of the release of as much energy as would be involved interacting with the rift?
Or concern about the Great Machine directly exploiting the rift in a desparate defence?
Or, possibly ...
An issue of possible side effects of the release of as much energy as would be involved interacting with the rift?
Or concern about the Great Machine directly exploiting the rift in a desparate defence?
puzzle
Regular
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
They probably have their doubts about messing with anything that could influence their past. Perhaps they suspect that altering the past might be capable of altering the present.
It's not a far fetch and besides... even if you thought that past and present are unlinked, would you be eager to test it out? (Might be more sensible to wait and try cracking the problem along a safer path.)
They probably have their doubts about messing with anything that could influence their past. Perhaps they suspect that altering the past might be capable of altering the present.
It's not a far fetch and besides... even if you thought that past and present are unlinked, would you be eager to test it out? (Might be more sensible to wait and try cracking the problem along a safer path.)
crazyhorse
Anarchist
Re: Technomages and Their Tech (implants)
It did did it not?War Without End started with a transmission that came from the real present and would of been reality if B4 wasn't sent back.
I've not read any books but there is some good stuff coming out here for somebody that probably will never have the chance to read them.
It did did it not?War Without End started with a transmission that came from the real present and would of been reality if B4 wasn't sent back.
I've not read any books but there is some good stuff coming out here for somebody that probably will never have the chance to read them.
