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EpDis: War Without End Part Two

Ceremonies Of Light And Dark

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This has probably been discussed before but I've noticed a small difference between "Babylon Squared" and "WWE".When Delenn told Sinclair "We have to go" in "Babylon Squared" it was visible that she was wearing a red cloth.In "WWE" she was dressed in brown.I wonder how could JMS miss that small but important detail.
 
He didn't miss it, there jsut wasn't a way to work it in without taking up episode time. There's another difference in the explanation of how Zathras got there.

Jan
 
He didn't miss it, there jsut wasn't a way to work it in without taking up episode time. There's another difference in the explanation of how Zathras got there.

Jan

Thanks Jan.I hadn't niticed the part about Zathras before.

I'm surprised that they just didn't dress Delenn in red from the beginning of "WWE".It would be much easier than finding a way to do it in the middle of the story.What were they thinking-that she had a secret wardrobe hidden somewhere in B4;).
 
This episode blew me away the first time I saw it, and the effect is still the same upon rewatching now. I watched it twice, back to back, and couldn't just move on to the next episode afterwards. There's so much emotional intensity from all of the characters.

In the flash forward Londo says that letting John and Delenn go is his last chance for redemption. That would be in accordance with Lady Morella's prophecy - though not killing the one who is already dead would also seem to apply. After all, Sheridan died on Z'ha'dum prior to that.

Sinclair reaching out to touch his past self also reminded me of Michelangelo's painting! The fact that The One consists of three is more than just a coincidental reference to the Biblical Trinity, imo - God is three in one.

As for the time travel - oh, what a tangled web! But it's done as excellently as such a premise can be done, with very tantalizing peeks into the future - and the past.

The more I see of Zathras, the more I wonder about who he really is and how deep his knowledge and abilities really go. What he does here is no mean task! In "B squared" and the first part, it's easy to see him as a bumbling comic relief character. But he too has his destiny - I wonder what his role is in Minbari's past?! Nonetheless, I love his humorous monologues.

The most gripping moments are those between Sheridan and Delenn in future captivity. JMS said he was going to do their first kiss differently, and he sure did! Seeing how deeply they love each other is heartwarming - and heartbreaking.

And Sinclair as Valen has to be the greatest comeback of a character in a science fiction series! What a turn of events, making him a mythological hero.

"That door is closed forever" - I'm glad JMS chose to put an end to any speculations about future use of the time rift in Sector 14. Anything that comes after this would be anticlimactic.
 
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Including Sinclair, now.

It's the most amazing episode in the series. And it felt like the "end" of the series, in a way.

Don't get me wrong, there was plenty of story to go, I know that. But somehow, this always feels like the end of the story, to me.

It's always such a shame to see a work of JMS the he couldn't complete. He is at his best when he can complete his thoughts.
 
:)

Several years ago, when the British Sci-Fi channel showed the whole series, they had a whole load of `awards` to (notionally) give out for various features, from `best spaceship` (Shadow battlecrab, I believe - a long time ago, now) to `best recurring character` (either Bester or Zathras - my vote went to Zathras :p as, much as I admired Walter Koenig's acting, I'd never vote for `creepy`) to `best plot twist` (and many others that I'm afraid I've forgotten, though I'm almost certain Marcus won something). The top answer (I've also forgotten numbers 2 - 5, alas :rolleyes:) for `best plot twist` was indeed the transformation of Sinclair into Valen. I don't think the fantastic `idea` really impacted on me (the first time), despite Marcus' sudden moment of understanding, until Zathras actually showed the 2 Minbari warriors (and therefore us) what had happened. I, too, was `blown away` :eek:.

(And I agree: "The One Who Was, the One Who Is and the One Who Shall Be" was indeed a bit pointed ;).)
 
We see Delenn tell Sheridan, in the "time flash", not to go to Z'ha'dum--knowing what would happen, I can sort of see why from a personal standpoint (he'd be limited to 20 more years of life, and at the time of that scene the end of that was coming close)--but what would have happened had he not gone?

The conditions by which Sheridan could bring together the younger races, and convince the First Ones to leave the galaxy, would not have been there. The "unexpected door" he opened, bringing the Vorlon-Shadow conflict to a real, direct head rather than it remaining just one more proxy war like the ones before it, had initially devastating consequences (planet destroyers deployed and such)--but it was probably the only way the younger races could see them for what they had become, and reject their influence. In the end it might have saved more lives than would have been lost in another round (and who knows how many more rounds) of First One-inspired galactic wars as had been the pattern of history--and fulfilled a task that would inevitably have to be fulfilled at some time or other (younger races "growing up").

Delenn of course would have understood all this from retrospect, yet still made an attempt to change the past. A very "human" moment to be sure. The Minbari side of Delenn would have understood the necessity of her and Sheridan's sacrifice for the "big picture"--interesting that that didn't prevail, in that one moment when she tried to alter the past by telling Sheridan not to go to Z'ha'dum. No doubt Sinclair/Valen faced similar temptations to try to alter the timeline with his influence.
 
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No doubt Sinclair/Valen faced similar temptations to try to alter the timeline with his influence.

He definitely did. Remember in the second part of War Without End (when he already know he is going to become Valen), he tried to reach Season 1 Garibaldi by warning him to "watch his back". Personally I though that even if he'd have got through to him that was going to be too oblique for him to pick up. After all, it seemed the Universe itself had been trying to give him the same hint verbatim throughout the entire first season.

Also if you read the comic "In Valen's Name", you find out that (don't uncloak the spoiler if you haven't read the comic and want to read it).

Spoiler for Sinclair's action as Valen:
Valen tries to leave a note with his allies for Delenn... warning her of the Earth-Minbari War... but he is stopped by a vorlon.

The tale ends with this conclusion:

"My name is Valen... and I have served my people like no other. I led them into fire... into darkness... into death... and they followed me without hesitation. They acclaim my victories and hail me as a great leader. They speak of my successes as if they are as infinite as the stars. And yet, for all that I've accomplished... I lie awake, listening to the screams of the dead and dying, those who are already gone, and those are yet to be born. A few words from me could avert the Earth-Minbari conflict. A warning to Delenn or Duhkat... But without the war, there would be no Babylon 4 and no Babylon 5. There would be no rallying point against the Darkness... and the Shadows would win, now and a thousand years from now. I cannot deviate from the circle of which I am a part. I am the beginning of the story, as Zathras said... and a prisoner of it. I dare not change the end. Still... it's been a good life... lives... over all. Delenn, Susan, Michael... if any of you see this somehow.. don't cry for me. For in the final analysis, I've always been too hard on myself. I'll be content to let history judge me, and all that has been done in Valen's name. And as for me... I've received my own reward, because I've found her. At long last... I've found... her."
Incidentally I've amended that last quote so it reads as jms intended it (infamous misprint in the comic)
 
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I love this two-parter a lot. I have such a hard time picking favorites, but during this re-watch, as I got to Messages from Earth - Point of No Return - Severed Dreams, I was thinking "this must be it right here, the high point of the season" (or of the whole show, perhaps?). But then of course there's War Without End. And I'm right back to "no, never mind, I'm not even going to try to pick". It's so great because it builds on a storyline that was introduced two seasons ago, not just quickly thrown in in the previous episode. It makes everything fit together nicely. It's really very satisfying to have the Babylon Squared mysteries resolved, and see how everything fits with the Shadow War, the Minbari prophecies, and everything else. It would still work if you hadn't seen Babylon Squared, too. It's kind of easy to forget that sort of thing, from a 2015 point of view with a full DVD collection on hand, but that must have been a pretty big concern for producers and such. I think they pulled it off really well.

My comments below are really about both part I and II, so "much apologizings" if I mention something here that was only in part I :p

So ... is there a raccoon infestation on Epsilon 3 or what? That sure is an interesting costume Zathras is wearing. I do love the Zathras character(s). He is funny, but not just comic relief. He's basically orchestrating this whole time jump thing (based on Draal's instructions, but still).

Those messages B5 starts picking up from themselves .. pretty chilling. I'm sort of surprised everyone seems so cool about this. I suppose they're trained military, they are constantly in dangerous and/or creepy situations, and they have been dealing with this Shadow war threat for a while now, but still. If I heard/saw a recording of myself amidst the destruction of my space station, I imagine I'd be a bit unsettled :p Anyway, I like that story element a lot. Creepy messages from a future that will come to pass if you fail at a specific undertaking. It also means, I suppose, that in an alternate universe, that is exactly what did happen to you.

Sheridan in the future: A very interesting preview of the Centauri Prime/Keeper storyline. "The war is never entirely over". It wouldn't be Babylon 5 if the Shadow War was won and everyone lived happily ever after, now would it? :p As for the "first kiss" thing, you know, I'm not sure I even realized that the Delenn/Sheridan first kiss isn't technically really a "first" kiss as such, until I saw/heard other people talking about it (I'm very perceptive :p ). How cleverly done! I really like that the Delenn/Sheridan relationship evolves slowly. Aside from the fact that that makes sense for them to not have too much time to relax and/or be alone, because they both have SO MUCH important stuff to deal with, it's just more realistic in general. It annoys me to no end that many tv/movie relationships seem to be based on nothing at all. People go from "hi, I'm so-and-so" to "I love you" in about five seconds. You don't know anything about that person! Sheridan and Delenn, on the other hand, had plenty of time to get to know each other.

"A Minbari not born of Minbari": I love the Sinclair = Valen reveal. It's fun to watch with people who are new to the show and see the realization dawn on their faces, much like Marcus' at the end of WWE pt II. After 20-ish years, it's still exciting to see Sinclair turned into a full Minbari, with his shiny Vorlons. But, more than that, it's just so cool how it fits with the whole Minbari background. Minbari spirituality isn't just a bunch of details invented to give the culture a bit of color. "In Valen's name" isn't just something to say to make them look more distinct from humans or other races. It all ties together with the main storyline of the show. This is excellent stuff.
 
I'm not commenting much but please keep writing. I'm enjoying your posts a lot!

Jan
 
Thank you, I certainly will! :) Apparently I have a lot to say! I guess I have almost 20 years of comments saved up and now that I'm letting them out, I don't think I can stop!

Once I'm done with all of the Babylon 5 episodes, I'll be watching Crusade for the first time ever! I only just bought it. That should be interesting ... I don't yet have any comment saved up for that.
 
I'm not commenting much but please keep writing. I'm enjoying your posts a lot!

Jan

I agree! I don't always have time to read through all of them or to make detailed comments of my own, but it's always nice to see that there are still people discussing B5 after so long! :)
 
Now THAT would be a useful thing indeed! :D

You might be able to get it fairly cheap now ... I just bought the Crusade DVD set for something like $12.
 

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