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? about Abutt and Ms. Winters

I have seen this ep several times and I still don't get it.

Why was Abutt recording Ms. Winters emotions? And why did Kosh even care? Even when it was revealed she was a sleeper, I still didn't get the connection of the recordings.

And sorry if I am mispelling his name.
 
Though Talia was going to be the manufactured Control personality, she wasn't always going to leave the show at the end of season two. The plan was that Kosh was aware of the fake personality in Talia and he had Abbut make that recording so that Kosh could eventually restore Talia's personality and make her his assistant much the way that Lyta ended up being Kosh's assistant.
 
Though Talia was going to be the manufactured Control personality, she wasn't always going to leave the show at the end of season two. The plan was that Kosh was aware of the fake personality in Talia and he had Abbut make that recording so that Kosh could eventually restore Talia's personality and make her his assistant much the way that Lyta ended up being Kosh's assistant.

Really, end of Season 2? That actually changes the picture of her leaving because she was looking for "greener pastures". Wasn't it about ep8 to mid Season 3 she actually left? Was she promised the gig would only last to S2 end? I'm actually very glad Pat came back as Lyta, and wish she had never left (never was a big Natalia fan), but, the rumor I heard was Talia's actress wanted the show to feature her more front and center as a "star" and she left to pursue a position more "worthy" of her, which always seemed bizarre in the environment JMS created with the show. De-cloud my understanding, please.
 
Really, end of Season 2? That actually changes the picture of her leaving because she was looking for "greener pastures". Wasn't it about ep8 to mid Season 3 she actually left? Was she promised the gig would only last to S2 end? I'm actually very glad Pat came back as Lyta, and wish she had never left (never was a big Natalia fan), but, the rumor I heard was Talia's actress wanted the show to feature her more front and center as a "star" and she left to pursue a position more "worthy" of her, which always seemed bizarre in the environment JMS created with the show. De-cloud my understanding, please.

Talia's last episode was "Divided Loyalties", which was near the end of season two. She wasn't always going to leave though; the Talia character had been created to replace Lyta and was going to be in all five seasons doing much of the stuff that Lyta ended up doing after she came back to the show, like being Kosh's assistant and becoming adversarial toward the PsiCorps and leading rogue teeps against them. You can see the beginnings of Talia's connecting to the rogue teeps both with Ironheart in season one's "Mind War" and in season two's "A Race Through Dark Places".

Talia's having her powers boosted by Ironheart was done to give a reason for Kosh to take initial interest in her, whereas with Lyta it was her having pscanned Kosh in "The Gathering", but with Lyta not in the show jms needed something special to get Kosh's attention. Kosh, being who he is, knew that Talia had the secret "Control" personality in her, and that's why he had Abbut make the telepathic recording of Talia's mind in "Deathwalker" so that later on Kosh could fix Talia's mind. The plan was that Talia would be revealed to be a PsiCorps mole with Control taking over Talia's mind, but Kosh would intervene and restore Talia's real mind with what had been recorded on that crystal Abbut made. Talia would then have gone on to work for Kosh much the way that Lyta did for him when she came back to the show.

But then as season two went on, Andrea Thompson wanted to be featured front-and-center more, and though jms tried to give her some more stuff to do (there's like three Talia-significant episodes in a row in season two), Andrea decided to leave the show. So, jms used the Control personality as the means to remove the character from the show, and with Patricia Tallman able to return to the show, he was able to return back to the Lyta character most of the plans he had originally had for her but had transfered to Talia when Lyta didn't come back for the first two seasons. Had Andrea not wanted to leave the show though, it would've been Talia for all five seasons.

The only thing I remember Andrea Thompson doing after B5 though was being a news reader for like the Headline News channel or something, though, so I'm not sure if her goal of finding something that featured her more than B5 was a goal she reached.

I wonder how the Ivanova-Talia relationship would've gone had Talia remained on the show. If Talia was on the show for all five years, I wonder if Ivanova would've had her thing with Marcus still. I could see maybe Byron having originally supposed to have been Talia, and that that would be the point that Ivanova and Talia's relationship ended, but I have no actual idea what that part of the original plan was.
 
I'm not sure if it was the plan from day 1 to have Talia be Control.
Even if that were the case, the whole thing was handled pretty sloppy in Divided Loyalties, when Garibaldi specifically mentions Kosh's recording as a potential way of restoring Talia's mind, and then... nothing. They don't even try to explain why they didn't or couldn't use that recording.
 
Talia's last episode was "Divided Loyalties", which was near the end of season two. She wasn't always going to leave though; the Talia character had been created to replace Lyta and was going to be in all five seasons doing much of the stuff that Lyta ended up doing after she came back to the show, like being Kosh's assistant and becoming adversarial toward the PsiCorps and leading rogue teeps against them. You can see the beginnings of Talia's connecting to the rogue teeps both with Ironheart in season one's "Mind War" and in season two's "A Race Through Dark Places".

Talia's having her powers boosted by Ironheart was done to give a reason for Kosh to take initial interest in her, whereas with Lyta it was her having pscanned Kosh in "The Gathering", but with Lyta not in the show jms needed something special to get Kosh's attention. Kosh, being who he is, knew that Talia had the secret "Control" personality in her, and that's why he had Abbut make the telepathic recording of Talia's mind in "Deathwalker" so that later on Kosh could fix Talia's mind. The plan was that Talia would be revealed to be a PsiCorps mole with Control taking over Talia's mind, but Kosh would intervene and restore Talia's real mind with what had been recorded on that crystal Abbut made. Talia would then have gone on to work for Kosh much the way that Lyta did for him when she came back to the show.

But then as season two went on, Andrea Thompson wanted to be featured front-and-center more, and though jms tried to give her some more stuff to do (there's like three Talia-significant episodes in a row in season two), Andrea decided to leave the show. So, jms used the Control personality as the means to remove the character from the show, and with Patricia Tallman able to return to the show, he was able to return back to the Lyta character most of the plans he had originally had for her but had transfered to Talia when Lyta didn't come back for the first two seasons. Had Andrea not wanted to leave the show though, it would've been Talia for all five seasons.

The only thing I remember Andrea Thompson doing after B5 though was being a news reader for like the Headline News channel or something, though, so I'm not sure if her goal of finding something that featured her more than B5 was a goal she reached.

I wonder how the Ivanova-Talia relationship would've gone had Talia remained on the show. If Talia was on the show for all five years, I wonder if Ivanova would've had her thing with Marcus still. I could see maybe Byron having originally supposed to have been Talia, and that that would be the point that Ivanova and Talia's relationship ended, but I have no actual idea what that part of the original plan was.

Thanks VL, I knew most of that, but, I always remember Divided Loyalties being in S3, probably due to Lyta's limited number of episodes between Divided Loyalties and becoming a full cast member.

I've known for some time that Lyta with Byron was meant to be Ivanova, for a period of time at least, but, I never considered Lyta/Byron might have been Ivanova/Talia

I think Andrea Thompson was in quite a few episodes of a Cop show, maybe NYPD Blue and a little while on one of the military shows, maybe NCIS, but, yea, I don't think she's done much else
 
I'm not sure if it was the plan from day 1 to have Talia be Control.

Well, I guess it's more like from day 2 in that Takashima was the original Control, but when she didn't come back for the show itself, that bit of plot was transfered to Talia. jms has said that Talia being control was there from her first episode, "Midnight on the Firing Line", expressed with Ivanova's comment to Talia, "You're as much a victim as my mother." Talia responds, "I don't feel like a victim." We take it as a more generic expression that early, but it was supposed to be very early foreshadowing the PsiCorps having messed with her without her knowing it.

I've known for some time that Lyta with Byron was meant to be Ivanova, for a period of time at least, but, I never considered Lyta/Byron might have been Ivanova/Talia

I hadn't ever thought of it either until I was typing up that post last night.
 
I also remember reading that when Takashima was gone, they didn't specifically transfer control to Talia, but kept it as a "trap door" for if/when they needed to remove an actor/character down the line, and then pulled it out for Talia.

I don't necessarily trust everything JMS says about his "original intentions" for the series.
 
I also remember reading that when Takashima was gone, they didn't specifically transfer control to Talia, but kept it as a "trap door" for if/when they needed to remove an actor/character down the line, and then pulled it out for Talia.

I don't necessarily trust everything JMS says about his "original intentions" for the series.
Because of the Abbut episode, I gotta believe he did have plans to turn Talia in some way since then, but, yea, it always surprised me that Garibaldi would remind the audience about the recording in Divided Loyalties, because at that point, JMS knew he was switching Talia's storyline back to Lyta?
 
I thought that the notion of Pat Tallman coming back as a regular, hadn't been decided at that point. I thought that she originally guested but signed on between series 2 and 3.
 
I don't necessarily trust everything JMS says about his "original intentions" for the series.

Yeah, I have more trouble trusting claims of original intentions some too now that I've read that narrative write-up he had done back sometime in season one of where the show was going with Sinclair as the main character and how different that was compared to what we got.

Because of the Abbut episode, I gotta believe he did have plans to turn Talia in some way since then....

That's pretty much my feelings on it too. There seems little other reason for the whole recording of Talia's mind other than plans to use that recording that got thrown out when Andrea left the show. It wouldn't have been an issue had Takashima returned for the show, as the plan for her was that she'd stay around until season two or early season three or so and would be removed like Talia was; her character was originally planned to be written out. With both Takashima and Lyta not returning for season one, jms took that part of Takashima and combined it with Lyta to make Talia.

There does feel like a bit of the drama of a PsiCorps mole from the Control plotline was transfered to Garibaldi in season four and five, though. Though it could also make sense that the PsiCorps would pick up Garibaldi in effort to replace the Control mole after Talia was exposed and restored by Kosh. So, it would still fit had Andrea not left. It would have made a Garibaldi-Talia alliance against the PsiCorps more dramatic too.

I'm kind of torn; on one hand, I kind of wish Takashima had returned and played out as planned because I think that would've been some good drama, but on the other hand, I like Ivanova so much that I'm glad we didn't have to wait a couple of seasons for her to become a main character the way she would've if Takashima had been around.
 
I think Andrea Thompson was in quite a few episodes of a Cop show, maybe NYPD Blue and a little while on one of the military shows, maybe NCIS, but, yea, I don't think she's done much else

Well, there is this handy thing called IMDb: :p

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005487/

Since B5:
"Heroes: Destiny" .... Serious Looking Woman (4 episodes, 2008)
"Bones" .... Nina Sanborn (1 episode, 2007)
Passing Darkness (2005) .... Jessica
"Medical Investigation" .... Dr. Lois McCarthy (1 episode, 2004)
"24" .... Dr. Nicole Duncan (5 episodes, 2003-2004)
"Touching Evil" .... Justine Hazelton (1 episode, 2004)
"JAG" .... Commander Alison Krennick / ... (7 episodes, 1996-2004)
"The Division" .... District Attorney Sally Bates (1 episode, 2004)
"The Wild Thornberrys" .... Zita (2 episodes, 2000)
"NYPD Blue" .... Det. Jill Kirkendall (63 episodes, 1996-2000)
Sweetheart Swindlers (2000) (TV) .... Narrator
Rocket's Red Glare (2000) .... Lois Shayne
Encounter in the Thrid Dimension (1999) (voice) .... Ruth in the Booth
Lost Valley (1998) .... Sandy Franzetti
"Arli$$" .... Giselle (1 episode, 1997)
A Gun, a Car, a Blonde (1997) .... The Blonde/Jade Norfleet
"Captain Simian & The Space Monkeys" (1996) TV series .... Additional Voices (unknown episodes)
"Nowhere Man" .... Corrina (1 episode, 1996)
 
Well, there is this handy thing called IMDb: :p

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005487/

Since B5:
"Heroes: Destiny" .... Serious Looking Woman (4 episodes, 2008)
"Bones" .... Nina Sanborn (1 episode, 2007)
Passing Darkness (2005) .... Jessica
"Medical Investigation" .... Dr. Lois McCarthy (1 episode, 2004)
"24" .... Dr. Nicole Duncan (5 episodes, 2003-2004)
"Touching Evil" .... Justine Hazelton (1 episode, 2004)
"JAG" .... Commander Alison Krennick / ... (7 episodes, 1996-2004)
"The Division" .... District Attorney Sally Bates (1 episode, 2004)
"The Wild Thornberrys" .... Zita (2 episodes, 2000)
"NYPD Blue" .... Det. Jill Kirkendall (63 episodes, 1996-2000)
Sweetheart Swindlers (2000) (TV) .... Narrator
Rocket's Red Glare (2000) .... Lois Shayne
Encounter in the Thrid Dimension (1999) (voice) .... Ruth in the Booth
Lost Valley (1998) .... Sandy Franzetti
"Arli$$" .... Giselle (1 episode, 1997)
A Gun, a Car, a Blonde (1997) .... The Blonde/Jade Norfleet
"Captain Simian & The Space Monkeys" (1996) TV series .... Additional Voices (unknown episodes)
"Nowhere Man" .... Corrina (1 episode, 1996)

LOL, but...sometimes it's fun to just guess ;), so I guess it was JAG, not, NCIS, and a few episodes of 24, but, basically that's it, aside from "one offs"
 
The Garibaldi story line of season 4 is one of my favorite. As much as I hate how Talia exited, if it is in some ways responsible for creating that subplot w/ Garibaldi (big IF, and we're just speculating) then it's all worth it. Loved... LOVED... how it was done. The idea to not make him a completely new personality but to play on his natural tendencies was brilliant.

Also the fact that Garibaldi and Sinclair were friends while Sheridan was an unknown entity to him. Just compare it to ST: Voyager, where one of the biggest criticisms of that show was that the conflict between Starfleet and Macquis crew members was quickly dissipated, while here the initial apprehension Garibaldi had towards Sheridan comes back into play really well.

Fans, being what we are, maybe focus on what was hurt by the unplanned stuff like actors leaving, but there were a lot of great story lines that developed because of that, too.
 
LOL, but...sometimes it's fun to just guess ;), so I guess it was JAG, not, NCIS, and a few episodes of 24, but, basically that's it, aside from "one offs"

JAG? You do see the line I have in BOLD, right? It was NYPD Blue, 63 episodes, more than she ever was in B5. However, I probably only saw 1 of those 63, so she'll always be Talia to me. ;)
 
JAG? You do see the line I have in BOLD, right? It was NYPD Blue, 63 episodes, more than she ever was in B5.
Why, Yes, I do see it, LOL. I guessed that one right, so, didn't see the point in mentioning it again. I only brought up JAG (the other of the Military shows), because I guessed NCIS, and brought up 24, because I wasn't aware of that one.
 
The other important thing that happened was the actors playing Talia and Garibaldi got married and divorced during Season 2. Working with your ex can be difficult.
 
While I don't have an exact date for their divorce, I gather from what JMS wrote in the script books, that they were still married when Andrea left the show.

Jan
 

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