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A glance backward

KoshFan

Regular
I've been watching some older episodes of B5 today -- "Sky Full of Stars," "Signs and Portents," "Chyrsalis," and finally "Points of Departure." I noticed a few things that I hadn't picked out before.

In "Signs and Portents" Morden leaves as soon as G'Kar and Delenn ask him to, doesn't talk to Sinclair, and for obvious reasons tries to avoid Kosh... but with Londo he's far more persistent. Londo expressly tells him to leave, and instead Morden follows him, and asks him more explicitly than the others "Is that really all?" A pretty strong hint that Morden and the Shadows had tapped Londo from the start.

Perhaps less importantly, Morden isn't in the main guest credits at the beginning. In fact, he's second or third to last in the credits at the end. An attempt, perhaps, to downplay his importance? Or just some arcane contract rule?

In "Chrysalis," you can practically see G'Kar the Political Troublemaker change to G'Kar the Prophet before your eyes as he realizes the Shadows are on the move again. When he says, "There's someone else out there," and later mentions that he has "certain suspicions" about who wiped out Quadrant 37, he's thinking of those pictures in the Book of G'Quan....

Also, when Londo tells Vir to send the message about taking care of Quadrant 37 personally, he starts to pour himself a drink -- then pours it back. Interesting.

The general "feel" of Chrysalis was strange; I thought to myself, "There's a lot going on in this episode, yet it's easily forgotten and overshadowed by, say, "Severed Dreams" or "Into the Fire." Yet when it was first shown, this was the biggest thing we'd had yet." Like looking back down a mountain you've climbed to see the lower slopes, and thinking, "I thought that was hard?"

In "Points of Departure," we first see Sheridan helping out some randon transport that had been hijacked. Establishing his personality as a plain ol' hero and a righter of wrongs from the very first second. Also, he's far more knowledgeable about the Minbari than you might expect. He spots Hedronn as Grey Council right away. When Lennier tells them about the Minbari soul trick, he nods, recognizing some of the background information. Finally, he quotes a speech made by Abraham Lincoln -- whom he later becomes, after a fashion, as Abrahamo Lincolni -- during the American Civil War, a nice setup for his role in the Earth Civil War a little later; moreover, the speech makes an important reference to honor, which is what the Trigati's crew were so obsessed with.

And, just as a total visual tidbit, when the Trigati blows itself up, you can see a few smaller explosions around it as the fighters it launched self-destruct as well.

Nothing deep, nothing earth-shattering, probably nothing new... but still interesting.
 
In "Signs and Portents" Morden leaves as soon as G'Kar and Delenn ask him to, doesn't talk to Sinclair, and for obvious reasons tries to avoid Kosh... but with Londo he's far more persistent. Londo expressly tells him to leave, and instead Morden follows him, and asks him more explicitly than the others "Is that really all?" A pretty strong hint that Morden and the Shadows had tapped Londo from the start.

I didn't think he gave any more or less persistence with Londo. Obviously, Morden had his leads, which explains why he would visit Londo and G'Kar. I have no idea what he was thinking when he went to see Delenn, but then again, the Wind Sword clan was not above corruption and vengeance. Also, Morden had no idea she was Grey Council. Her reaction was violent, so he left. G'Kar treated him as an annoyance before finally giving an answer - the wrong answer. Londo also treated Morden as a pest, but by this time Morden was running out of prospects and was genuinely annoyed at Londo's answer. And one doesn't have to be around Londo for long to know what he wants. He knew there was more, so he pressed one final time. And boy did he get his answer.

Perhaps less importantly, Morden isn't in the main guest credits at the beginning. In fact, he's second or third to last in the credits at the end. An attempt, perhaps, to downplay his importance? Or just some arcane contract rule?

JMS was always quoting SAG rules, which he was unable to deviate from. If he could have left Melissa Gilbert's name off the starting credits of "Shadow Dancing" he would have.

In "Chrysalis," you can practically see G'Kar the Political Troublemaker change to G'Kar the Prophet before your eyes as he realizes the Shadows are on the move again. When he says, "There's someone else out there," and later mentions that he has "certain suspicions" about who wiped out Quadrant 37, he's thinking of those pictures in the Book of G'Quan....

You gotta admit, G'Kar sounded the warning very early and was not above going it alone to get to the bottom of things. Those were cool times, too. We really didn't know what to make of G'Kar. When he saved Catherine Sakai, I just sat and stared. No one here is what they seem.

Also, when Londo tells Vir to send the message about taking care of Quadrant 37 personally, he starts to pour himself a drink -- then pours it back. Interesting.

With that one order, Londo had placed his career on the line, so I see a few possibilities:
1. He didn't want to jinx it by drinking to his success too soon.
2. He wanted to stay sober in case it failed and he had some 'spainin' to do later.

The general "feel" of Chrysalis was strange; I thought to myself, "There's a lot going on in this episode, yet it's easily forgotten and overshadowed by, say, "Severed Dreams" or "Into the Fire."

This ep was huge. Earthforce One's destruction is indelibly etched in my mind.

Sheridan quotes a speech made by Abraham Lincoln -- whom he later becomes, after a fashion, as Abrahamo Lincolni -- during the American Civil War, a nice setup for his role in the Earth Civil War a little later.

Only he's looking at it from the other side, bearing arms against his own government.

And, just as a total visual tidbit, when the Trigati blows itself up, you can see a few smaller explosions around it as the fighters it launched self-destruct as well.

They actually all flew back in close proximity to the Trigati so they would be destroyed by the explosion.
 
Also, when Londo tells Vir to send the message about taking care of Quadrant 37 personally, he starts to pour himself a drink -- then pours it back. Interesting.

Londo starts off as half comic drunk, Dudley Moore's Arthur in a fright wig. He drinks to drown his disappointment in a dead-end career, an ambassadorial appointment that is a joke, his powerlessness and the powerlessness of his people. He drinks to dstract himself, and to ease the pain. When he begins to direct events instead of being pushed along by them, he no longer needs to drink or to celebrate tiny or trivial events and victories with outsized mirth, becasue he will now have real victories to celebrate, and he finds they can be celebrated with much less fanfare precisely because they are real. Similarly as he acquires real distinction and political power he can stop wearing the garish purple and gold and switch to the more reserved black and sliver. It is the same impulse that leads tinpot dictators of powerless countries to dress up in comic opera military uniform replete with medals they issued themselves for non-existent battles, whereas sober and confident leaders of powerful nations wear busiiness suits.

Morden ... doesn't talk to Sinclair

Morden doesn’t need to talk to Sinclair, because the Shadows have already made their alliance with Earth in the person of Santiago.

I have no idea what he was thinking when he went to see Delenn...

At this point the Shadows probably don't know that the Vorlons and Minbari have renewed their alliance, or how much, if anything, Kosh may have told Delenn. They certainly don't know that she's Grey Council or that anyone is aware that the Shadows have returned. So sounding her out makes perfect sense. It has been a long time since the last war, and separating the Minbari from the Vorlons, making them into agents of chaos, would be a real coup. They probably don't know why the Minbari surrendered at the Line anymore than anyone else does at this point, and they may be hoping to reignite the E-M war. Certainly the Minbari, the most advanced of the younger races, would make even better surrogates for the Shadows in starting wars than the Centauri later prove to be, as they are so much more powerful.

In "Signs and Portents" Morden leaves as soon as G'Kar and Delenn ask him to, doesn't talk to Sinclair, and for obvious reasons tries to avoid Kosh... but with Londo he's far more persistent. Londo expressly tells him to leave, and instead Morden follows him, and asks him more explicitly than the others "Is that really all?" A pretty strong hint that Morden and the Shadows had tapped Londo from the start.

Hmmm...

I have to take slight issue with some of this.

When G’Kar tells him to leave, Morden does, indeed, smile politely and start to leave. But G’Kar doesn’t simply tell Morden to leave; he actually gives Morden the answer to his question, which is what he came for. Morden’s business is done once the question is answered. G’Kar says, “What I want is for you to leave me in peace.” And if that is, indeed, G’Kar’s “final answer” then he is useless to Morden and his associates. If G’Kar doesn’t stop him before he’s out the door, Morden has no further interest in him.

G’Kar does stop Morden, and gives him a real answer to Morden’s question, and Morden stays to hear the answer. Then he tries to push G’Kar to say more, just as he does with Londo. Only when it is clear that the Narn will be satisfied with destroying the Centauri, and that G’Kar not only has no ambition beyond that, but hasn’t even thought about what might follow after his people have taken their vengeance on the Centauri, does he thank G’Kar and take his leave. On his own hook, not after being asked to leave by G’Kar.

If G’Kar had given a different answer, if he had said he wanted the Narn to take over the Centauri Empire, occupy their colony worlds, take over their client and vassal states, things might have gone very differently.

The scene with Delenn is very different. Delenn tells Morden to “Get out. NOW!” after her little Grey Council shadow detector goes off – a pretty hard hint to ignore. The whole interview is short-circuited.

With Londo, unlike the others, Morden does not have a formal interview in the ambassador’s quarters at a scheduled appointment. He catches him on the fly in a hallway. True, Londo does tell him “Go away” just as the lift doors open, but that is said in answer to Morden’s question, and they are in a public hallway, not in Londo’s quarters, which Londo could reasonably order him out of. When Morden hops into the car with Londo just before the doors close again he explicitly tells Londo that he isn’t allowed to go away until he gets an answer to his question. Delenn’s hostility might have been taken as an answer, or Morden (or his associates) might have detected her Shadow detector. But Londo is different. Before he even boards the transport tube car, before he even tells Morden to go away, he asks Morden, “What do you want?” He asks the Shadow question, and thus symbolically reveals himself as a kindred spirit before we even know what the Shadows are.

Londo then gives Morden exactly that answer they’ve been looking for – the one that makes the Centauri (more than Londo himself) good targets for their plans. (Just as they’re later happy to transfer their business to Refa when it suits them, the Shadows are more interested in races than in individuals. Species evolve, individuals don’t – they change, but they don’t evolve in the biological sense. The Narn, the Centauri and the Minbari are targeted because they are technologically, militarily and politically more advanced than the others. Morden didn’t waste any time on the Gaim, the Drazi or the pak’mara.)

Lord Kiro, in his own way, is also a manifestation of the Centauri desire to return to the old days of glory, and an interesting counterpoint to Londo.



Regards,

Joe
 
{snip} The Narn, the Centauri and the Minbari are targeted because they are technologically, militarily and politically more advanced than the others. Morden didn’t waste any time on the Gaim, the Drazi or the pak’mara.)
Morden must have talked to the Brakiri because in Act 1 of "Interludes and Examinations"

<quote>
BRAKIRI
Our military are hopelessly outnumbered. We lost many of our best ships in our recent war against our neighbours.

SHERIDAN
And now you're both in the same position, unable to defend yourselves. I can't believe you would trust the Shadows when they said they were on your side. They just wanted you to waste your resources fighting one another. Didn't it ever occur to you that they were telling your enemy the same thing they were telling you?
</quote>
 
Morden must have talked to the Brakiri

There's no reason to thnk he had such a meeting in "Signs and Portents". Much later,when the Centauri have already stirred things up for them "on twelve fronts", the Shadows begin backing the leser races in brushfire wars along their own borders. We hear about this as a widespread phenomenon at least once or twice in the dialogue before the Shadows start moving openly against the younger races. Morden's initial targets, when the Shadows ara still hidden and making tenative moves, were clearly the more advanced races.

Regards,

Joe
 
Morden ... doesn't talk to Sinclair

Morden doesn’t need to talk to Sinclair, because the Shadows have already made their alliance with Earth in the person of Santiago.

:confused: Santiago??? Don't you mean VP Clark or Psi Corps? I don't remember anything about Santiago being in league with the Shadows.
 
Not sure about this theory of the shadows concentrating on the more advanced of the younger races.They were in contact with Earth long before Morden turns up on B5.I just don't see earth as one of the more advanced races.One of the things that attracted me to B5 in the first place was the fact that Earth was a pretty weak force compared to many of the other races.I'm pretty sure races like the Drazi,The League of Unaligned Worlds ect. were hyperspace capable before Earth I always thought.I took it simply as sticking to the main characters in the story and assumed that others had been contacted too.
 
Craze, you've gotta get that space bar fixed. :)

The Shadows started their dealings with Clark because a) one buried Shadow vessel had already been found and recovered from the Sol system and they needed to contain that information and b) in order to neutralize Psi Corps and the Human telepaths. The human teeps were the Vorlon's pride and joy, not as powerful as some, but with almost unlimited potential. (See Jason Ironheart and Lyta.) Also Earth had sent an expedition to Z'ha'dum.(obviously) and that was another case where the Shadows' agents had to get control of the situation, both to limit the spread of information and ensure that no rescue or follow-up mission was dispatched.

Earth has had instellar flight for a bit over 100 years. Some of the League worlds probably had it longer, some probably gained it more recently. The Humans probably have rough technical parity with the Drazi, and the others, while laggiing a bit behind the Narn (who copied much of what they have from the Centauri) and way behind the Centauri, the Minbari and the Vorlons. (One of the dividing lines seems to be who does and does not have artificial gravity, since this also means a more advanced drive system.)

That rough parity seems likely since Earth was able to decsively intervene in the Dilgar war about 30 years before the start of the series. The League was losing prior to Earth's involvement.

I also liked the fact that the Humans weren't the technological top dogs in the series, but instead were somewhere in the middle of the pack.

But like I said, I think the Shadows were interested in Earth for other reasons entirely and therefore took an entirely different approach with the Humans.

Regards,

Joe
 
Had another thought on this.Could the four races known to have been contacted been picked for their aggressive qualities?

The Narn had been aggressive throughout the first series but were disregarded for having a lack of ambition,wanting nothing more than to destroy the Centauri.

EA got involved in the Dilgar conflict to flex their military muscles and make a name for themselve.Always had the feeling that Earth had a far larger fleet than other spacefaring species and that was one of their strengths.By the research that the likes of Deathwalker did I would of said that the Dilgar were a good bit more advanced than EA.

The Minbari seem to have a reputation as a race not to mess with.From Londo's warning in ITB,the resulting earth war and a referance to the Minbari having visiting revenge on the race that captured Sherridan when they had been attacked themselves.

The Centauri had a reputation for empire building and also crossing that line of "acceptable" behaviour,the occupation of Narn and their treatment of the population being an example.

All of these races seem to show more aggression than the others,something I'm sure the Shadows would like.

I would of put the Narn a good bit ahead of Earth on Weapon Technology but that would depend on how much of this technology they actually sold to the Earth.

Not sure about the telepath thing as no real comparisons could be made between the species.We know the Narn were interested in the genetic maniplination of the telepath gene and I wouldn't put it past the Centauri either.I doubt the Minbari would do that.A minbari telepath did manage to block Bester though,one of the most powerful of Earth telepaths.

Spaces by special request :beer:
 
Also, Earth spearheaded the building of Babylon 5, which was meant to help keep the peace. It seems like getting them into the Shadows' fold would have been important, because even though we weren't the technological top dog, we were certainly loud and persistent -- as humans tend to be <g> -- and trying to assert control in ways that diverged from Shadow interests (i.e. trying to keep the peace).
 
Joe wrote:
But Londo is different. Before he even boards the transport tube car, before he even tells Morden to go away, he asks Morden, “What do you want?” He asks the Shadow question, and thus symbolically reveals himself as a kindred spirit before we even know what the Shadows are.

Now that is an excellent point. On this last viewing I noticed that Sinclair also asks that question of the Gray Council in "The Sky Full of Stars," and the question echoes back to him in weird distortion....
 
I would of put the Narn a good bit ahead of Earth on Weapon Technology but that would depend on how much of this technology they actually sold to the Earth.

Actually, you would have or would've put the Narn ahead. :) (Sorry, that's just a common error that bugs me.) And seriously, what's with not putting a space between sentences? It makes your posts harder to read. Why would you want to do that? Onwards...

The Narn were selling mostly actual Centauri weapons more than weapons technology. The Apache might sell rifles and ammunition to the Comanche, but that doesn't mean either tribe could have built a Winchester or manufactured ammunition. I'm sure the Narn (and the Humans) did reverse-engineer the Centauri technology and gradually start making their own designs based on it, but G'Kar makes the point that if the Minbari intercept a shipment they'll find Centauri weapons and attack them, rather than the Narn, which suits him just fine. Since 10 years later Narn ships and weapons have a distincitly Narn aesthetic, whatever the underlying technology, I assume the same was true at the time of the E-M war and that therefore the Narn were selling Centauri surplus. :)

Not sure about the telepath thing as no real comparisons could be made between the species.

Lyta says that the Human Teeps were the Vorlon's masterpiece.

We know the Narn were interested in the genetic maniplination of the telepath gene

The Narn were just interested in being able to breed true telepaths again.

A minbari telepath did manage to block Bester though, one of the most powerful of Earth telepaths

1) It wasn't one telepath, it was a roomful of them. There was one teep for each member of the command staff.

2) Nobody ever said that Bester tried to scan anyone and was blocked. The mere presence of that many alien, non-Corps, telepaths was enough to prevent him from attempting any such scan - which was the point of the exercise. Bester was still acting under Psi Corps rules. If he'd attempted an illegal scan the Minbari teeps would have caught him and that would have caused him trouble. You'll notice that he was contempuous of the Minbari teeps and doubted that they'd be able to block a P12 if he wanted to try something. (And he may well have been right.)

3) Lyta was able to block Bester, quite casually. And Talia, another Human teep whose latent powers were activated by an outside source, was able to keep Bester out of her thoughts without him even knowing that he was being blocked. In the confrontation with the Telepath Underground it was her abilities that allowed the (quite large) group of strong teeps to plant the illusion in Bester's mind.

Spaces by special request :beer:

Consider this a special request. :)

Joe
 
I find it totally possible- and probable- that the Shadows/Morden did some sort of scouting research on the various races and their B5 ambassadors before confronting them in Signs and Portents. Information is power, and all that, you know. Yes, they approached Delenn because they figured they might as well give it a shot, but probably didn't hold out much hope. But they probably saw the Centauri as a really good candidate before ever talking to Londo.
 
I may not be clearly remembering the Delenn scene, but didn't Morden look genuinely surprised when she turned her back to him and shouted for him to get out?

If he were half expecting it, wouldn't that have been played differently?
 
I may not be clearly remembering the Delenn scene, but didn't Morden look genuinely surprised when she turned her back to him and shouted for him to get out?

The interesting thing is that we don't really see Morden's reaction. The actual sequence is that Delenn ask Morden about the purpose of his question and if he asked the same of G'Kar. (Interesting that she already knows about that meeting, isn't it?) While he answers she turns her back on him and fiddles with the Chrysalis device she has been building, seemingly stalling. Delenn seems uncomfortable with Morden throughout. While her back is still turned to him the silver triangle of the Grey Council appears on her forehead, to her considerable surprise. She covers it, and turns to face Morden. From her point of view we see Morden's face fade into shadow until it is completely obscured. Morden calmly says, "Ambassador?" as if to ask "what's wrong?" She then tells him to leave and leave now. I think his face remains the same polite mask when he exits. After he's gone Delenn drops her hand from her forehead and breathes, "They're here."

My reading of the scene is that neither Delenn nor Morden knows who the other really is. As I mentioned above, the Minbari-Vorlon alliance isn't really public at this point, and the Shadows think their return is still a secret, so they probably assume that the Vorlons haven't told anyone about them yet. (The Vorlons being a secretive bunch at the best of times, with a tendency to tell people what they need to know when they need to know it and not a second before - as is seen repeatedly with Kosh and Sheridan.) So even if Morden researched Delenn, I'm not sure that anything he learned would have made her less of a prospect than anyone else. The Minbari are as corruptible as other mortals.

Regards,

Joe
 
(this post contains a few SPOILERS about stuff outside the main episode arc -- specifically The Shadow Within and In the Beginning)

Remember also that Delenn's knowledge about the Shadows is, at this point, pretty much hearsay and prophecy.

1) The prophecies of Valen, in which she firmly believes.
2) The reappearance of the Vorlons just before Dukhat's death.
3) Kosh's order to prevent the Icarus from going to Z'ha'dum.

To sum up: Delenn suspects, of course, that the Shadows are on the move again... but it's not until she sends Lennier to Kosh in "Chrysalis" that she knows for a certainty. If Morden and the Shadows didn't think the Vorlons had told the Minbari much, they were probably right. Delenn's just a) Sakai, b) slightly telepathic, and c) quick off the mark, and figures Morden out on her own. Bad luck for Morden.


Thinking on this, however raises an interesting question in my mind: why did Dukhat suggest a jaunt to Z'ha'dum in "In the Beginning"? Was it done at the suggestion of Kosh, or in defiance of Kosh? What would the Gray Council have found, if they'd made it all the way there? How would that have changed things?

Or -- most deviously -- perhaps Kosh instigated the trip to Z'ha'dum in the full knowledge that the Council would never reach it, instead running afoul of the Humans? What did Valen tell the Vorlons about the Earth-Minbari War?
 

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