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Lochley, How did they know?

Alai

Beyond the rim
I have always thought that if Claudia Christian hadn't left, then when Sheridan over the Alliance, then Ivanova would have taken command of Babylon 5. But in the season finale of season four, Sheridan says that he "...has discussed it with Captain Lochley," and they will not deal with the terrorist that are holding Garribaldi. So is my assumption wrong about Ivanova taking over B5, or had she already told JMS that she wasn't coming back?
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I believe that Deconstruction of Falling Stars was written and filmed after season 5 was already a certainty - just as the fact that Claudia Christian would not be in it was already known to JMS.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Sleeping in Light had also already been filmed by that time, right? Wasn't that supposed to be the season 4 (and whole series') finale - if there hadn't been a season 5?

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
 
That was "Deconstruction of Falling Stars". It was a Season 5 episode, cleverly disguised as a Season 4 episode to take the place of "Sleeping in Light" which had already been filmed.

Some visual cues are:

Londo's hairstyle is different than the episode immediately before it. It is curved more toward the back of his head. Yeah, subtle, but there it is.

No Claudia anywhere, even in the scene prior to the Great Burn.

Sheridan had the goatee, and the almost reddish hair color that seems to plague him in Season 5.

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"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."

[This message has been edited by B5_Obsessed (edited November 20, 2001).]
 
Yes, Sleeping in Light was filmed BEFORE anyone knew if there would Be a season 5.

That was the Ending JMS had always planned for the series, so he made sure it Got filmed.

As soon as they got confirmation that there would be a Season 5, Deconstruction was written and filmed to fill the season 4 ending slot.
And, yes, by the time they started filming, they knew Claudia wasn't going to be there.
They had to know who was available a couple Months before filming so the scripts could be written and shooting schedules planned.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
Yes, DoFS was supposed to be a season 4 ep, but was filmed as a season 5 ep, and SiL was filmed at the end of season 4, but was put off until the end of season 5. That is why you hear Sheridan say "I've consulted with Captain Lochley..." in Deconstruction and why Ivanova is in Sleeping in Light. During season 4, no one was sure that there would be a season 5, so JMS and company filmed Sleeping in Light at the end of season 4. When it was certain that there would be a season 5, DoFS was put in the place of Sleeping in Light and that episode was held back until the end of season 5.

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Lorien: Who are you?
RW: The salad man.
Lorien: Why are you here?
RW: To be the salad ambassador.
Lorien: What do you want?
RW: Everyone to know the joys of salad.
Lorien: Do you have anything worth living for?
RW: Yes, my salad bars.
 
The clue that Ivanova was not coming back was actually given even earlier than DoFS.

In the penultimate S4 episode (Rising Star) the ISN newsreader states that, having been promoted to Captain, Ivanova had elected to leave B5 and take a one year "shakedown cruise" as captain of one of the new Warlock class destroyers.

I understand that this part of the voiceover was re-done following the final decision by TNT to fund S5, specifically to "announce" her departure.

Whatever the truth of the matter (and frankly who cares) Claudia Christian was a huge loss to the show - in more ways than one.
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DaveC
"The lunch has already started,
it is too late for the sandwiches to vote"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
I believe that Deconstruction of Falling Stars was written and filmed after season 5 was already a certainty - just as the fact that Claudia Christian would not be in it was already known to JMS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wrong. Deconstruction of Falling Stars was finished by July 6th 1997. Claudia made her intention to leave the show clear on July 11th 1997. Deconstruction was one of several scripts jms had to do rushed last-minute rewrites on to remove Ivanova and insert Lochley.



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"When I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you, ok?"
-- Ranma-chan, A Leotard is a Girl's Burden, Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GaribaldisHair:
I understand that this part of the voiceover was re-done<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes. Originally it just announced her promotion to captain. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>following the final decision by TNT to fund S5, specifically to "announce" her departure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>TNT's renewal was publicly announced on June 27th 1997. Claudia made her intention to leave the show clear on July 11th. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Whatever the truth of the matter (and frankly who cares)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I do. Claudia could have announced her intention to leave the show when she was the only on of the cast who didn't sign a contract extension, giving jms time to properly adjust his plans (rather than forcing him to do it on the fly). Instead she waited until the last minute, when WB demanded an answer from her. Claudia could have been straight about what happened from the start (or simply stayed quiet), instead she told several conflicting and factually problematic stories, causing a lot of grief for jms and just about everyone who were involved in B5 fandom at the time. A year later she finally started acknowledging that she quit, but by that time the damage had already been done.

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"When I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you, ok?"
-- Ranma-chan, A Leotard is a Girl's Burden, Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net
 
Someone fill me in here because I don't know. I do know that CC left at the end of season 4 and all that stuff. What I dont remember was were the Telemovies that she appeared in (Thirdspace) filmed AFTER Season 5 ended? So she left the series, but came back for the telemovies? I thought that is what happened, but I cant recall.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recoil:
What I dont remember was were the Telemovies that she appeared in (Thirdspace) filmed AFTER Season 5 ended?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. Thirdspace and In the Begining were shot immediately after the 4th season ended production.

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"When I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you, ok?" (audio)
-- Ranma-chan, A Leotard is a Girl's Burden, Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net
 
I had always wondered if JMS had planned Ivanava to leave or if it had been planned that she would still be a main character, just on a Warlock Destroyer. Or if JMS had to quickly rewrite the script. But I thought it was amazing how everything came together like it did.
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Drakh:

I don't know where you're getting your dates, but they don't coincide with the events as I remember them, or other published accounts.

"Deconstruction of Falling Stars" was filmed as 501 - the first episode of the fifth season production run. Claudia's departure was a done deal before that script was even written - it was, in fact, the need to get scripts written and pre-production started for the move to TNT that established the deadline for Claudia to sign a new contract for the show. When she missed this deadline (for whatever reason) her association with the show ended. (The other actors had already agreed to contract extentions while WB and TNT were negotiating for S5. Claudia elected not to for reasons of her own. So she was technically no longer on the show after "SiL" finished shooting - the TV movies being covered by separate one-shot contracts of their own.)

So nothing in "Deconstruction" or the modified line in "Rising Star" points to any "pre-planned" departure for Claudia. That event took everyone by surprise, and they reacted to it as best they could.

Thirdspace and In the Beginning were shot immediately after "SiL" (in that order) because the original TNT deal for the S1-S4 reruns included the two TV movies. The series deal was actually made after TNT execs saw some of the first footage from Thirdspace and were impressed.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
I don't know where you're getting your dates,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=01bc839e%2460b55820%24d19545cf%40kevin-home http://www.dscga.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html

I never make factual statements without being resonably sure I can back them up. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>"Deconstruction of Falling Stars" was filmed as 501 - the first episode of the fifth season production run. Claudia's departure was a done deal before that script was even written<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tell that to jms:

JMS, July 20 1997

"The first script had to be in on July 6th. The second on July 12th. The third one on July 18th."

JMS, July 28 1997

"July 9th: the Variety and Reuters pieces appear saying Claudia's has left the show. WB wants to know where Claudia stands, and we need to know because at this point I've finished writing the new 422, and am about to start on 502 (actually the first S5 episode). I hear about this when Claudia, I and the rest of the cast are in the UK at Blackpool. The WB need for urgent clarification is conveyed to Claudia's agent.

July 10th: I reinforce to Claudia, at the pub in the DeVere hotel, that unless she confirms through her agent by noon Friday, the 11th, that she wants to be on the show, the offer will be withdrawn, that she will have, to all intents and purposes, passed on the offer.

July 11th: there was no "final comment," no meeting...again, we are still in the UK. For there to be a final comment, she or her agent would have had to actually *speak* to someone. But no call came from either Claudia or her agent. There was NO response at all. Thus, the offer was finally and reluctantly withdrawn because we were simply out of time, and having been told that silence = a pass on the offer, there was no longer any reason to maintain the offer. She passed.

July 12th: Jeff goes to Claudia and on his own, tries to convince her to try and work this out on Monday, that if her agent makes contact first thing, maybe this can be worked out. This is not a position that I told him to advance to her, he did this entirely on his own, hoping that she could still come back from her decision. Bruce and other cast members also try to talk to her about this, concerned about her decision.

July 14th (Monday): Claudia leaves the convention mid-day, announcing that she is going to go to a photo shoot.

The weekend of July 19th-20th: I'm at ComicCon in San Diego, where I learn that Claudia, at another convention, has announced that she was fired from B5. And that, to paraphrase, is where the blitz hit the fans." <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>it was, in fact, the need to get scripts written and pre-production started for the move to TNT that established the deadline for Claudia to sign a new contract for the show.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ummm... no. It was the fact that in spite of her constant assurances that she was in for the 5th season, Variety was anouncing that she was out looking for work elsewhere.

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"When I want your opinion I'll beat it out of you, ok?" (audio)
-- Ranma-chan, A Leotard is a Girl's Burden, Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net

[This message has been edited by drakh (edited November 22, 2001).]
 
Oh dear, I appear to have stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest here
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I think the point I was trying to make was just that whatever is the truth behind her departure and whoever (if anyone) was telling the whole truth, CC was a massive loss to the show.

I have heard tell elsewhere that Lyta's part in the telepath storyline was originally intended for Ivanova. It would have been interesting to see how that panned out, given the earlier revelations about her latent telepathy.

Anyone have any further insights into this one?

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DaveC
"The lunch has already started,
it is too late for the sandwiches to vote"
 
One further thought (and not completely uninfluenced by my wife's distress over the death of Marcus
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) is that an earlier knowledge of CC's non-participation in S5 would have allowed JMS to let her die at the end of 'Between the darkness and the light' (is that right??).

A death in battle would have been right up Ivanova's alley, and would have further reinforced JMS' stated aims that no character is indispensible if it serves the story.

Just a thought
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DaveC
"The lunch has already started,
it is too late for the sandwiches to vote"
 
Oops!

It was actually 'Endgame' wasn't it.
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DaveC
"The lunch has already started,
it is too late for the sandwiches to vote"
 
Well.. in the 'Between the darkness and the light' that thingie rammed in the Whitestar but in the 'Endgame' Ivanova would die if Marcus wouldn't have 'saved' her.

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Logical thinking - Perfect weapon
 
Claudia was never intended to die at the end of Season 4. As far as I know, Marcus was always intended to die, just like Keffer. From the day he showed up on the station he had a date with an alien healing device sitting in Franklin's closet. It was the big payoff.

It also would have set Ivanova up as a love interest for Byron, the pseudo-Marcus. Her romantic decision would have been a bad one, as usual.



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"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."
 
I believe JMS had indeed started the first three scripts for Season 5 when Claudia finally departed. He then had to find a suitable replacement for her and rewrite them so they made sense.

I believe Season 5 would have been greatly improved had Claudia remained in the series, partly because JMS wouldn't have been so stressed out, and also because the loss of Marcus and her later involvement with Byron would have allowed CC to show her considerable acting abilities, as she did in Endgame.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
 

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