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Old May 25th 10, 00:26   #141
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

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Originally Posted by GKarsEye View Post
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ut the bottom line is that I think there are two camps right now:
What if you're not in either camp?
I guess I should have said "generally" speaking. For the most part there are two camps from what I've been reading/hearing. Of course there are always exceptions, but you get the gist of it...
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Old May 25th 10, 15:35   #142
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

Found this on ABC LOST Site, supposedly words from someone at Bad Robot with his take and clarifying things. Don't know the original source other than that. It makes sense to me. Rousseau is mispelled several times, so don't know if that's a transcribing error or an indication someone made it up, but, it does make sense with what we saw, and helps clarify things, even if it's only someone's theory, and not real information from a Bad Robot employee who is on the inside and knows real information.

http://forum.lostpedia.com/someone-b...e-t59261.html?

First ...
The Island:

It was real. Everything that happened on the island that we saw throughout the 6 seasons was real. Forget the final image of the plane crash, it was put in purposely to f*&k with people's heads and show how far the show had come. They really crashed. They really survived. They really discovered Dharma and the Others. The Island keeps the balance of good and evil in the world. It always has and always will perform that role. And the Island will always need a "Protector". Jacob wasn't the first, Hurley won't be the last. However, Jacob had to deal with a malevolent force (MIB) that his mother, nor Hurley had to deal with. He created the devil and had to find a way to kill him -- even though the rules prevented him from actually doing so.

Thus began Jacob's plan to bring candidates to the Island to do the one thing he couldn't do. Kill the MIB. He had a huge list of candidates that spanned generations. Yet everytime he brought people there, the MIB corrupted them and caused them to kill one another. That was until Richard came along and helped Jacob understand that if he didn't take a more active role, then his plan would never work.

Enter Dharma -- which I'm not sure why John is having such a hard time grasping. Dharma, like the countless scores of people that were brought to the island before, were brought there by Jacob as part of his plan to kill the MIB. However, the MIB was aware of this plan and interferred by "corrupting" Ben. Making Ben believe he was doing the work of Jacob when in reality he was doing the work of the MIB. This carried over into all of Ben's "off-island" activities. He was the leader. He spoke for Jacob as far as they were concerned. So the "Others" killed Dharma and later were actively trying to kill Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and all the candidates because that's what the MIB wanted. And what he couldn't do for himself.

Dharma was originally brought in to be good. But was turned bad by MIB's corruption and eventually destroyed by his pawn Ben. Now, was Dharma only brought there to help Jack and the other Canditates on their overall quest to kill Smokey? Or did Jacob have another list of Canidates from the Dharma group that we were never aware of? That's a question that is purposley not answered because whatever answer the writers came up with would be worse than the one you come up with for yourself. Still ... Dharma's purpose is not "pointless" or even vague. Hell, it's pretty blantent.

Still, despite his grand plan, Jacob wanted to give his "candidates" (our Lostaways) the one thing he, nor his brother, were ever afforded: free will. Hence him bringing a host of "candidates" through the decades and letting them "choose" which one would actually do the job in the end. Maybe he knew Jack would be the one to kill Flocke and that Hurley would be the protector in the end. Maybe he didn't. But that was always the key question of the show: Fate vs Free-will. Science vs Faith. Personally I think Jacob knew from the beginning what was going to happen and that everyone played a part over 6 seasons in helping Jack get to the point where he needed to be to kill Smokey and make Hurley the protector -- I know that's how a lot of the writers viewed it. But again, they won't answer that (nor should they) because that ruins the fun.

In the end, Jack got to do what he always wanted to do from the very first episode of the show: Save his fellow Lostaways. He got Kate and Sawyer off the island and he gave Hurley the purpose in life he'd always been missing. And, in Sideways world (which we'll get to next) he in fact saved everyone by helping them all move on ...

(Conitnued next post)
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Old May 25th 10, 15:36   #143
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

Sideways World:

Sideways world is where it gets really cool in terms of theology and metaphysical discussion (for me at least -- because I love history/religion theories and loved all the talks in the writer's room about it). Basically what the show is proposing is that we're all linked to certain people during our lives. Call them soulmates (though it's not exactly the best word). But these people we're linked to are with us duing "the most important moments of our lives" as Christian said. These are the people we move through the universe with from lifetime to lifetime. It's loosely based in Hinduisim with large doses of western religion thrown into the mix.

The conceit that the writers created, basing it off these religious philosophies, was that as a group, the Lostaways subconsciously created this "sideways" world where they exist in purgatory until they are "awakened" and find one another. Once they all find one another, they can then move on and move forward. In essence, this is the show's concept of the afterlife. According to the show, everyone creates their own "Sideways" purgatory with their "soulmates" throughout their lives and exist there until they all move on together. That's a beautiful notion. Even if you aren't religious or even spirtual, the idea that we live AND die together is deeply profound and moving.

It's a really cool and spirtual concept that fits the whole tone and subtext the show has had from the beginning. These people were SUPPOSED to be together on that plane. They were supposed to live through these events -- not JUST because of Jacob. But because that's what the universe or God (depending on how religious you wish to get) wanted to happen. The show was always about science vs faith -- and it ultimately came down on the side of faith. It answered THE core question of the series. The one question that has been at the root of every island mystery, every character backstory, every plot twist. That, by itself, is quite an accomplishment.

How much you want to extrapolate from that is up to you as the viewer. Think about season 1 when we first found the Hatch. Everyone thought that's THE answer! Whatever is down there is the answer! Then, as we discovered it was just one station of many. One link in a very long chain that kept revealing more, and more of a larger mosiac.

But the writer's took it even further this season by contrasting this Sideways "purgatory" with the Island itself. Remember when Michael appeared to Hurley, he said he was not allowed to leave the Island. Just like the MIB. He wasn't allowed into this sideways world and thus, was not afforded the opportunity to move on. Why? Because he had proven himself to be unworthy with his actions on the Island. He failed the test. The others, passed. They made it into Sideways world when they died -- some before Jack, some years later. In Hurley's case, maybe centuries later. They exist in this sideways world until they are "awakened" and they can only move on TOGETHER because they are linked. They are destined to be together for eternity. That was their destiny.

They were NOT linked to Anna Lucia, Daniel, Roussou, Alex, Miles, Lupidis, (and all the rest who weren't in the chuch -- basically everyone who wasn't in season 1). Yet those people exist in Sideways world. Why? Well again, here's where they leave it up to you to decide. The way I like to think about it, is that those people who were left behind in Sideways world have to find their own soulmates before they can wake up. It's possible that those links aren't people from the island but from their other life (Anna's parnter, the guy she shot --- Roussou's husband, etc etc).

A lot of people have been talking about Ben and why he didn't go into the Church. And if you think of Sideways world in this way, then it gives you the answer to that very question. Ben can't move on yet because he hasn't connected with the people he needs to. It's going to be his job to awaken Roussou, Alex, Anna Lucia (maybe), Ethan, Goodspeed, his father and the rest. He has to attone for his sins more than he did by being Hurley's number two. He has to do what Hurley and Desmond did for our Lostaways with his own people. He has to help them connect. And he can only move on when all the links in his chain are ready to. Same can be said for Faraday, Charlotte, Whidmore, Hawkins etc. It's really a neat, and cool concept. At least to me.

But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic. Originally Ben was supposed to have a 3 episode arc and be done. But he became a big part of the show. They could have easily changed their ending and put him in the church -- but instead they problem solved it. Gave him a BRILLIANT moment with Locke outside the church ... and then that was it. I loved that. For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it.


In the end, for me, LOST was a touchstone show that dealt with faith, the afterlife, and all these big, spirtual questions that most shows don't touch. And to me, they never once waivered from their core story -- even with all the sci-fi elements they mixed in. To walk that long and daunting of a creative tightrope and survive is simply astounding.
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Old May 25th 10, 16:09   #144
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

Good summary. I pretty much interpreted stuff the same way.

Perspective time: Lost is really just an action/adventure show that delves into more crazy stuff sometimes. Anyone who's so devastated by the last season doesn't feel that way I guess, and demanded or expected something else.. I don't know what exactly.. and are reacting to hype compared to on-screen action.

Frankly, I find declarations of "I wasted 6 years" or whatever to be pretty infantile. Are people really watching a whole TV show as just a long introduction for that last episode, or do you tune in weekly for the entertainment? If the latter- which, you know, is how this is supposed to work- then nothing is "wasted," because, to quote The Gladiator, "Were you not entertained?"

Now anyone thinking they were ever gonna get some brilliant artistic film-making with plot or character beyond a solid, entertaining adventure show- you need to expand your viewing habits and expectations. On the very same night of the Lost finale, Treme had a new episode with beautiful character moments and situations, and Breaking Bad aired the oddest, boldest two-man episode of TV since Intersections In Real Time. Those are the shows where you're going to find you "art" and whatever.
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Old May 25th 10, 23:20   #145
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

Mostly my take on it too. Although I hadn't given as much thought to what Ben's "unfinished business" might be, I like that interpretation a lot. The only trouble I have has to do with Richard, who I'm pretty sure was one of the first one's to come into the Dharma camp after the Purge, which, along with his initial recruitment of young Ben, made it appear that he was involved in the planning all along.
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Old May 26th 10, 22:11   #146
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

ok i didn't get any of that stuff but ok..

and what do you mean by 'linked' vs 'not linked'

is it because a person was in season ONE and therefore linked??
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Old May 26th 10, 23:11   #147
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

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ok i didn't get any of that stuff but ok..

and what do you mean by 'linked' vs 'not linked'

is it because a person was in season ONE and therefore linked??
Well, not me, I just posted what someone else wrote, but yea, think of Daniel Faraday telling Desmond to find a Constant. The folks at the Church, who weren't in S1 would likely be the "Constants" of the S1 one folks (Libbe/Hurley, Rose/Bernard, Juliet/James, Penny/Desmond). Desmond wasn't actually in S1, but, the "Rules don't apply to him", and also, in S1 we do see the light coming up out of the Hatch (which we find out in S2 was Desmond) and Desmond was in fact the one who "shone the light" on most people in the Sideways/limbo universe and woke them up.
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Old May 26th 10, 23:26   #148
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

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Originally Posted by Sindatur View Post
But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic.....For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it..
That, by the way, just goes to reinforce the theory I've been posting for some time now, that originally they meant for the island to be some sort of Purgatory. That part of the "JJ" ending fits that precisely. But after the first couple of episodes when everyone started saying "oh, they are in purgatory" they realized if everyone knew the big secret then no one would watch (and they likely would have been correct) they denied it and started making up other stuff as they went along.

And...since the ending did have a purgatory piece in it, it shows they couldnt have strayed too far from things.
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Old May 26th 10, 23:36   #149
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

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Originally Posted by Recoil View Post
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Originally Posted by Sindatur View Post
But, from a more "behind the scenes" note: the reason Ben's not in the church, and the reason no one is in the church but for Season 1 people is because they wrote the ending to the show after writing the pilot. And never changed it. The writers always said (and many didn't believe them) that they knew their ending from the very first episode. I applaud them for that. It's pretty fantastic.....For those that wonder -- the original ending started the moment Jack walked into the church and touches the casket to Jack closing his eyes as the other plane flies away. That was always JJ's ending. And they kept it..
That, by the way, just goes to reinforce the theory I've been posting for some time now, that originally they meant for the island to be some sort of Purgatory. That part of the "JJ" ending fits that precisely. But after the first couple of episodes when everyone started saying "oh, they are in purgatory" they realized if everyone knew the big secret then no one would watch (and they likely would have been correct) they denied it and started making up other stuff as they went along.

And...since the ending did have a purgatory piece in it, it shows they couldnt have strayed too far from things.
If they planned the Limbo/Purgatory ending all along, in this manner, than IMHO, that was fair authorial misdirection, because it didn't enter the story until S6, everything that happened on the island really happened, and anything that happened S5 and before (when they denied Purgatory) wasn't about Purgatory. The series was about the journey these people took together, not where that journey ended

Of course, if they originally intended the island to be Purgatory, and swapped it to this sideways Universe Purgatory ending, yea, that's a cheat.
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Old May 27th 10, 03:48   #150
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Re: Anyone still watching Lost?

Again with the purgatory bunk. Ugh. So old.
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