The hand.... Thirdspace

just wondering.
Could it be? that would be cool

Oh, cool. Great thought! I'm going to have to pull that tape out tonight.

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There's some speculation about The Hand and Thirdspace aliens. From what I've seen it's about 50/50 on wether they're the same or not.

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I was thinking they weren't the same ... but possible from the Thirdspace dimension. Several reasons; we already know they are from some "other dimension" (or so we think and/or are led to believe). To me, the Hand seems different than the aliens seen in Thirdspace. The ships we saw (toys, trickets we were told) look different and the motives aren't quite the same as the "exterminate all life that is not us" as seen in Thirdspace. However, I could believe the Hand - hinted at being natives to our realm long ago - were excised to the Thirdspace realm and sealed off. Some altercation with the Thirsdspace aliens might have led to their xenophobia and utter hatred of life in our universe when the Vorlons made the Doorway and they discovered we were the universe the Hand was from. Also, "the Hand of God" is their full title. It's egotistical and I don't believe they have any connection with the divine ... but what made the Vorlons originally think Thirdspace was Heaven? They thought they'd find "gods" there and become them themselves. Why did they think this realm was heaven? Interesting ...

And finally ... if this does have some connection with Thirdspace, it would vindicate the reason for having that movie as part of the continuing plot of the B5 universe. Lyta did say it was "one of many [mistakes]" and Sheriden gave that cryptic (paraphrasing) "if it ever happens again, we probably won't survive it" line.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias:
just wondering.
Could it be? that would be cool<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Mouahaha. "B5lr.com: The Next Generation" Seriously, this topic have been discussed, well I think 4639 times in this forum But as the 'old' gang seems to disapear, maybe it's time for a new generation of users to talk about everything again



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"You are all in violation of security ordinance 22V3A. That means get the hell out of here!
"
- Zack

They were also called "The Hand of Destruction".
Since the thirdspace aliens could take over Vorlon minds it would make them more powerfull than the shadows.

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GaribaldiHairs, how can this have been discussed 4639 times before? the movie is only 1 month old.
I think it would be pretty cool, and explain alot if it where the aliens from thirdspace, remember we never got their names.
Loadhan, then ships we saw in the movie where toys, whereas the ships we saw in thirdspace where ships. you are right the technology doesn't look the same. But that doesn't rule it out. furthermore, if they wan't to hide who they are, they would use ships their enemy doesn't know, and won't recognize. btw, what where "the hand's" motives, if we where told, it eluded me. I haven't seen anything that contradicts that wan't to "exterminate all life that is not their own".
and as Xzyl correctly said: Since the thirdspace aliens could take over Vorlon minds it would make them more powerfull than the shadows.

Im not convinced it is the thirdspace aliens, and im not convinced it isn't. But i think this is a great discution.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias:
GaribaldiHairs, how can this have been discussed 4639 times before? the movie is only 1 month old.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tobias, if you want to read some of the previous discussions on The Hand, you might be interested in these threads:

Let's speculate on THE HAND(spoilers)
Love or loathe it, the Hand a tactical blunder?(spoilers)
Why did The Hand want (spoilers)?
The Hand: What it seems or misdirection?(spoilers)

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net

Xzyl, the aliens from thirdspace could take over ALL minds, not only vorlon minds.

Kribu, k thanks

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tobias:
GaribaldiHairs, how can this have been discussed 4639 times before? the movie is only 1 month old.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A ballpark figure, but nonetheless, a subjest that has been discussed many times. What we do know is that the Vorlons seem to think that the Thirdspace aliens are 'anti-life itself,' whereas we don't know what the Hand's motives are.

Suggest that you look at http://www.b5lr.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000675.html.

HTH


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What's the integral of one over cabin with respect to cabin? Natural log cabin + c = houseboat.
--
yan@ranger.b5lr.com

Gah! Beaten to it...

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What's the integral of one over cabin with respect to cabin? Natural log cabin + c = houseboat.
--
yan@ranger.b5lr.com

Nukemall, I Know I know. Im not that autistik. i just thought it was a little early to come with a statement like that. if i started to discuss the whole b5/ds9 thing again i could see it. but with this.


btw. i do have autisme, so im not marking some handicapped group.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GaribaldiHairs:


Mouahaha. "B5lr.com: The Next Generation" Seriously, this topic have been discussed, well I think 4639 times in this forum But as the 'old' gang seems to disapear, maybe it's time for a new generation of users to talk about everything again

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We haven't disappeared, but are just tired of discussing that topic, and so lurk in lieu of commenting.

I think they're different (The Hand and the Thirdspace aliens).

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

Crusade (reruns) starting 03/26/2002 at 1PM EST on the Sci-Fi Channel

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

This came up many months ago (the "we've discussed this before" thing). I think someone even suggested that threads be closed if they had been discussed before.

That would work just great if no one new ever came here! But in reality, as was said, the more "veteran" posters just don't go to the threads that are hashing out the things that they feel were discussed well enough before.

I, myself, have no idea what JMS is thinking of with this new threat. But I know it's probably not what it seems to be, or will be quickly dealt with somehow.

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"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

What difference does it make to the overall story? I know some viewers always want continuity but even if the two groups are in some way connected or related, it won't make much difference to the on-going story.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

To put my two cents in, I believe the Hand and the Thirdspace aliens are the same.

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-With every light is born a shadow-

Even if they are the same (which I suspect they may not be) the situation would clearly be different.

In case of "Thirdspace", someone physically opened a jumpgate into their back yard. In this case, somebody established communications. They have probably been trying to gain cooperation -- via promises and technical advise.

But as they have not shown up personally, I would suspect that their allies will have to build a jumpgate for their return. Should that happen, we will surely find out whether they are the same.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

I am loath the post this entire quote, but I believe it suggests some interesting possibilities

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> There are races billions of years older than ours. They once walked among the stars like giants, built huge empires and fought great wars.

In this galaxy, early sentients were diverse and different. Lorien and some others were born as beings of energy, immortal and immaterial. They were the first to attain sentience, explore, learn and eventually teach.

Not a billion years had passed when new races appeared and developed starflight. On a remote world on the Rim, curious and communicative insects solved the mysteries of life and death, grew their first ships and learned to travel in hyperspace. Elsewhere, squid-like creatures swimming in a dense atmosphere started wondering about what lay above and outside. They too had soon built ships and left to explore.

And somewhere, the last of natural energy beings appeared. They were not immortal, needing constant replenishment to survive and grow. Their ancestors were efficient predators, and so were their offspring. They quickly developed societies, intellect and sentience. But they never got along with others, disgusted and annoyed by beings of matter.

As their culture developed, they chose a path distinctive only for them. While the Shadows learned to exploit hyperspace, the Hand wandered into other dimensions. While the Shadows learned to build massive fleets in a moment, the Hand perfected telepathy for defense and attack, control and communication.

Seeing only beings of matter around them and generally disillusioned with their neighbours (who didn't help it by being prejudiced and trying to invade often) the Hand chose isolation. When their territory was attacked during another squabble of neighbouring First Ones, they finally lost balance and deemed others unworthy. They would conquer the galaxy for themselves.

And they almost did, for nobody but the Sigma walkers could match their ability of dimensional travel. Nobody except the First One could match their telepathic abilities. One opponent fell or fled after another, until they finally stumbled upon the Shadows. This race had always enjoyed developing weapons and fighting.

Facing an enemy capable of controlling their strongest minds, the Shadows made a tentative alliance with Lorien. In exchange for protecting their homeworld, they promised to oppose, return and not stop until the Hand was defeated.

They learned to integrate their own minds with technology to gain immunity from telepathic intrusion. Since then, every attempt to scan a Shadow has ended in extreme discomfort or insanity.

Leaving their homeworld to Lorien's custody, they spread and retreated, disappeared and faked a defeat. While retreating, they sowed all suitable planets with nanomachines programmed to build a new fleet. This fleet would be sentient mind, a mind run by machines, a huge neural network of ships and computers, immune to telepathy and beyond any attempt of prediction.

After a few years, the Shadows returned to their homeworld, set up the original Eye and told the fleet to awaken. Ships started appearing from unknown and uninhabited planets, gathering, communicating and searching their masters. The fleet soon organized itself and established lines of command, and the first Shadow War began without anyone knowing it.

The Hand found their power crumbling and their existance threatened. For them, Shadow fleets were slow, but uncontrollable and indestructible. Every planet they reached, they also destroyed. After last attempts at resistance, the Hand retreated to another dimension, leaving the hostile world of matter behind. Their ways of return were cut off, their jump gates destroyed. Only a few cities went undetected, and these had none. But a few did have communications facilities...

...which somebody, a few billion years later, found and activated. Having learned of the departure of First Ones, the Hand decided to force its way back into their home dimension, and take the galaxy which rightfully belonged to them.

Using their excellent telepathic abilities and knowledge of psychology, they quickly "converted" the beings who found their city... into doubtless followers. They would instruct and help them... to build a jump gate for their return.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

as I said, it does suggest some interesting possibilities that do have a strangely JMS type of twist. Also, if The Hand of God, The Hand of Destruction are what they seem to be than JMS would have to already have a way to fit them into the existing continuity.
To me this just seems kinda like something he would do, even if it isnt right on, this theory may be way off what JMS has in mind, but it is a good example of how to fit The Hand in. Now just imagine the possibilities if the dimension the hand had been banished to was thirdspace and the ThirdSpace Aliens had been influenced by some chance encounter with The Hand...

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

Aargh!

:: Shadow Nitpicking Team scampers away for cover ::

I had forgotten my piece of "speculative fan fiction".

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 25, 2002).]

SPOILERS OUT THE WAZOO!!!
SPECULATION OUT THE @SS!!!

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Something that I think a lot of people forget is that Lorien said that the Shadows were THE OLDEST, THE FIRST of the first ones. The Shadows were older than the Vorlons, and almost certainly far more powerful. Something a lot of people say is that the Shadows were less powerful based on their technology but let us not forget that for a race millions of years old, one thousand years is nothing. The Shadows may be "asleep" for that long at a time, although many sources indicate that they were quite active (PsiCorps Trilogy), and the Vorlons may have made great leaps forward in their attempts to catch up to the Shadows, seeing as the Vorlons were able to access thirdspace one million years ago. But i seriously doubt that the Vorlons actually caught up to the Shadows, part of the reason for the Rules of Engagement, and for their reluctance to directly engage anyone in combat, while the Shadows put their own ships on the front line without worry.
But let us assume that Lorien, who taught the Shadows Millions, perhaps even a billion years ago, who is "respected" and even considered to be a kind of god or spiritual figure by the Shadows, let us assume that he simply never chose to tell the younger races about the hand, never told sheridan, ivanova, dellen, any of them. If the conflict with The Hand took place early enough before the Vorlons reached Hyperspace than it may even have been the Shadows themselves, or the Walkers (who i just think are older and more powerful than the vorlons) or some other first one race who came after the shadows but before the vorlons who banished The Hand. it may even have been Lorien or his people themselves. In any case, the Vorlons may have come so much later that the Hand were merely a legend told to the vorlons by other more ancient first ones that the Vorlons met as they reached the stars. The vorlons may never have known the menace of the hand, and since the vorlons wanted to look powerful, angelic, godlike and invincible to the younger races (human, minbari) they may never have told the younger races anything at all of what they knew of this "legend". even Lorien may have neglected to inform Sheridan and CO. of the threat if he believed the threat to be gone forever. ancient and immortal does not mean infallible. or perhaps he did, perhaps sheridan was the ONLY one who knew anymore, and perhaps that explains his comment about "we may not survive it next time" (Thirdspace, Intro). perhaps that is even why conflict with The Hand is not mentioned in the intorduction to A Call To Arms, when the ISN reporter says that aside from the Centauri War and the Telepath Crisis the past five years (Rangers falls into this period) were a period of peace. If sheridan knew perhaps he covered up the climax of any potential conflict with The Hand, seeing as it would most likely take place in "the dark places no others will walk". Hell, Sheridans forces may even find themselves allied with the ThirdSpace Aliens, fighting against The Hand.
</font></td></tr></table>

Speculation, Speculation, Speculation...

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?