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If you could create your own B5 spinoff...

I'm not one of those fanfic people. Nothing against them, I'm just bent towards telling my own stories. Sometimes, however, the appeal of playing in someone else's garden is...well...appealing.

So just for a change, rather than talking about what is, let's talk about what we'd do with it. I'm not advocating fanfic, fanfilms, or copyright infringement of any kind. I'm just wondering what *you'd* do if you had a good budget, a 110-episode deal, and the blessings of JMS and Warners.

Me? I'd do a "Knights of the Round Table" kind of show, with seven main characters, and a dozen or so recurring. They'd be Rangers, of course, going off to handle various situations, alone, in small groups, or as a whole all together. It'd be almost an anthology. Sheridan would show up five or six times a year as Arthur. There'd be an arc, though I have no real clue what I'd throw in there (Basically I'm not willing to put that much effort into my bluesky woolgathering. Any arcs or plots I might come up with for this are things I'd much rather use in my own stories.)

The *purpose* of the show would be to tie up all the disparate threads of B5, Rangers, Crusade, and the Telepath War, obviously, but - there'd be some kind of central plot unique to my show to give it a reason for being beyond simply cleaning up messes. I'm thinking in tone and structure, it'd be something like Justice League Unlimited, if anyone ever watched that show. (If not, you really should)

Oh, and I think I'd have each group of 11 episodes constitute a year. So season 1 would be 2263 and 2264, and season 5 would be 2273/2274. This would allow us to cover most of the dangly bits, and I just think it would be interesting as an experiment as I've never seen a show done like that.

PS:
This originally appeared verbatim under the title "Prodigious Nonproductivity," a title that doesn't tell anything about the thread, and apparently didn't garner any attention as a result. I decided to re-post it under a clearer title in hopes of getting people to, you know, actually *look* at it. <G>

I'd have deleted the earlier thread, but I don't know how to do that. If someone could please remove that one, I'd be appreciative.
 
I think part of the reason for folks not responding to many of the threads right now is because they’re simply not reading the forums. Or the threads touch on subjects covered elsewhere or at some previous time.

Jan’s post on the new books for example! Or the previous version of this thread only getting 29 views (at the time of me typing this).

I’m only here myself as I’m doing a lot of (on-line) running about putting the final revision of B5Scrolls together. If everything pans out to it’s full potential (though I doubt that will happen) there will be some nice additions to the thing.

As for the topic of the thread. It’s not my cup of tea. I disowned my ‘muse’ a long time ago.

Though if any spin-offs did ever occur I’d be more happy with a completely new story, perhaps one of those hinted at in the original series. Crusade was OK, but the renegade discovering a hidden plot by a secret organisation within the . . . . . . . . it’s so dull (or at least done to death over the years) I can’t even be bothered typing it out. ; )
 
Yeah, pretty dead on here lately. Updates from JMS, when there are any, seem to indicate that the Hollywood writing life means lots and lots of loose ends, and a few things that get made for the screen. How many of those projects have disappeared completely? I bet there are some real gems we'll never see.

I found Crusade anything but boring, though. If JMS' storytelling tended to build up conflict and then diffuse it all (I hate that), then I would agree, it's been done before. But given the number of wars we saw in B5, I'd say Crusade would have had its own share of galactic mayhem. EarthForce's murderous Shadow hybrid ships; a certain bone-headed race they were built to fight; Psi Corps on the run with nowhere to go, unless you've read 'The Nautilus Coil'... Just like B5, there are so many indications in Crusade of what's out there, and where it was all headed. I was pleasantly surprised with how different Crusade turned out to be from B5. Of all the loose ends in the B5 universe, this is the storyline that needs to be finished, and I am not referring to the Drakh plague. Okay, okay, the Telepath War, too. The newer storylines begun in Lost Tales and Legend of the Rangers were far less interesting.

Looking forward to the newly-rebuilt B5scrolls! Glad you decided to do it again.

Raw Shark

"We shall begin by summoning my holy inquisitioners."
The Lord High Papal, Dreadstar

 
Yeah, pretty dead on here lately. Updates from JMS, when there are any, seem to indicate that the Hollywood writing life means lots and lots of loose ends, and a few things that get made for the screen. How many of those projects have disappeared completely? I bet there are some real gems we'll never see.

I found Crusade anything but boring, though. If JMS' storytelling tended to build up conflict and then diffuse it all (I hate that), then I would agree, it's been done before. But given the number of wars we saw in B5, I'd say Crusade would have had its own share of galactic mayhem. EarthForce's murderous Shadow hybrid ships; a certain bone-headed race they were built to fight; Psi Corps on the run with nowhere to go, unless you've read 'The Nautilus Coil'... Just like B5, there are so many indications in Crusade of what's out there, and where it was all headed. I was pleasantly surprised with how different Crusade turned out to be from B5. Of all the loose ends in the B5 universe, this is the storyline that needs to be finished, and I am not referring to the Drakh plague. Okay, okay, the Telepath War, too. The newer storylines begun in Lost Tales and Legend of the Rangers were far less interesting.

Looking forward to the newly-rebuilt B5scrolls! Glad you decided to do it again.

Raw Shark

"We shall begin by summoning my holy inquisitioners."
The Lord High Papal, Dreadstar


The Drakh Plague was the last thing added to the story, and would have been the first one discarded. I really couldn't care less about that, but I was really interested in the technomage stuff.

I think I wouldn't care about the Crusade failure-to-launch if it weren't for those tedious dangling threads in the last bit of B5, setting up the Drakh, setting up the Telepath War.

I should mention that much like the Drakh Plague, I never found the Telepath War that interesting a concept. To be more than smash/bang/pretty pretty explosions, an SF war has to be about something other than just the fighting. The Shadow War, for instance, was about self determination and making a way for yourself without outside help. The retaking of earth was about cleaning up messes and making worse ones. That's all well and good, but "We shot them and then they died" isn't very interesting to me.

I'm assuming that JMS had something larger in mind that would have made it matter, but I've begun to doubt...
 
I wasn't terribly interested in the Telepath War concept for a long time, either. Then I read the first Psi Corps novel, liked it a lot, and started seeing the possibilities. Psi Corps has interesting connections with both the Vorlons and Shadows. They also have a permanent problem. As long as they live among normals, they will be under threat of violence or extermination. Long term, telepaths need to either take over, or leave Earth to live by themselves elsewhere. In the Telepath War they have to fight both normals and renegade telepaths for control, and as we know, they lose. Psi Corps' leaders and Psi Cops are either dead or on the run, but the status quo is largely preserved: telepaths are still under the control of an agency of the Earth Alliance, living under strict rules. There is no telepath homeworld. Telepaths and normals still live side by side, overseers continue to terrorize lower level telepaths, and the pressure will continue to build. Sometime after Crusade, they might have started referring to it as 'The First Telepath War.' The Bureau of Telepath Integration could be next. As we saw in B5, history repeats itself.

The Drakh threat was downplayed for some reason in A Call to Arms and Crusade. JMS' other idea for a lead-in movie, 'The Eve of Destruction,' had a huge Drakh fleet sweeping through the galaxy and attacking everyone, then a desperate campaign to stop them. Instead, every time we see them, they're getting wiped out by Sheridan, the Rangers, or Gideon. Their plague was a neat plot device, but one that wasn't going to be used for very long. Their infiltration of governments and organizations was a cool concept, but they didn't seem capable of winning any battles. Personally, I think it's a metaphor for China, Pakistan and Iran, but that's just me:p

<Spoiler, though I'm not sure if it matters> And although I like Peter David, I thought the Legions of Fire trilogy ended too easily, before the Drakh can really use the Centauri against their enemies. Build up the militaristic Centauri war machine into a great big threat, then it fizzles out. Reminds me of a Tom Clancy ending, and those are usually not good. I do realize the action was meant to take place on Centauri Prime, not with some distant fleet, but then why mention the fleet at all?

Legions of Fire was a good series though, certainly. I still haven't finished the Psi Corps books, dammit. I'm having trouble caring about Bester's life in grade school. I need Bester to be dark and vicious. All other aspects of Keyes' books I like a lot. He likes to play in a futuristic Earth-scape.

Raw Shark

"Make your choice, adventurous stranger,
Strike the bell and bide the danger,
Or wonder 'til it drives you mad,
What would have happened, if you had?"
C.S. Lewis, I forget which book
 
Yeah, pretty dead on here lately.

Well, it's been 11 years since "Crusade" went down.

Updates from JMS, when there are any,

are few and FAR between, and almost always are not about B5 or Crusade.


seem to indicate that the Hollywood writing life means lots and lots of loose ends, and a few things that get made for the screen. How many of those projects have disappeared completely? I bet there are some real gems we'll never see.

After "Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers" and "Babylon 5: The Lost Tales," I'm not so sure.


I found Crusade anything but boring, though. If JMS' storytelling tended to build up conflict and then diffuse it all (I hate that), then I would agree, it's been done before. But given the number of wars we saw in B5, I'd say Crusade would have had its own share of galactic mayhem. EarthForce's murderous Shadow hybrid ships; a certain bone-headed race they were built to fight; Psi Corps on the run with nowhere to go, unless you've read 'The Nautilus Coil'... Just like B5, there are so many indications in Crusade of what's out there, and where it was all headed. I was pleasantly surprised with how different Crusade turned out to be from B5. Of all the loose ends in the B5 universe, this is the storyline that needs to be finished, and I am not referring to the Drakh plague. Okay, okay, the Telepath War, too.

Agreed, but I also want to see the Drakh plague resolved.


The newer storylines begun in Lost Tales and Legend of the Rangers were far less interesting.

I find the new storyline begun in Legend of the Rangers to be completely uninteresting. Hope we never see that again. As for Lost Tales, the Centauri storyline holds more promise, and was more interesting.
 
I wasn't terribly interested in the Telepath War concept for a long time, either. Then I read the first Psi Corps novel, liked it a lot, and started seeing the possibilities. Psi Corps has interesting connections with both the Vorlons and Shadows. They also have a permanent problem. As long as they live among normals, they will be under threat of violence or extermination. Long term, telepaths need to either take over, or leave Earth to live by themselves elsewhere. In the Telepath War they have to fight both normals and renegade telepaths for control, and as we know, they lose. Psi Corps' leaders and Psi Cops are either dead or on the run, but the status quo is largely preserved: telepaths are still under the control of an agency of the Earth Alliance, living under strict rules. There is no telepath homeworld. Telepaths and normals still live side by side, overseers continue to terrorize lower level telepaths, and the pressure will continue to build. Sometime after Crusade, they might have started referring to it as 'The First Telepath War.' The Bureau of Telepath Integration could be next. As we saw in B5, history repeats itself.

The Drakh threat was downplayed for some reason in A Call to Arms and Crusade. JMS' other idea for a lead-in movie, 'The Eve of Destruction,' had a huge Drakh fleet sweeping through the galaxy and attacking everyone, then a desperate campaign to stop them. Instead, every time we see them, they're getting wiped out by Sheridan, the Rangers, or Gideon. Their plague was a neat plot device, but one that wasn't going to be used for very long. Their infiltration of governments and organizations was a cool concept, but they didn't seem capable of winning any battles. Personally, I think it's a metaphor for China, Pakistan and Iran, but that's just me:p

<Spoiler, though I'm not sure if it matters> And although I like Peter David, I thought the Legions of Fire trilogy ended too easily, before the Drakh can really use the Centauri against their enemies. Build up the militaristic Centauri war machine into a great big threat, then it fizzles out. Reminds me of a Tom Clancy ending, and those are usually not good. I do realize the action was meant to take place on Centauri Prime, not with some distant fleet, but then why mention the fleet at all?

Legions of Fire was a good series though, certainly. I still haven't finished the Psi Corps books, dammit. I'm having trouble caring about Bester's life in grade school. I need Bester to be dark and vicious. All other aspects of Keyes' books I like a lot. He likes to play in a futuristic Earth-scape.

Raw Shark

"Make your choice, adventurous stranger,
Strike the bell and bide the danger,
Or wonder 'til it drives you mad,
What would have happened, if you had?"
C.S. Lewis, I forget which book

I really liked the first Psi Corps book, the second one struck me just as you said. The third one seems rather pointless to me all around, though I'll admit the last bit made me suck in my breath and stood up the hairs on the back of my neck.

I didn't much care for the Centauri trilogy for a whole bunch of reasons, not the least of which is that the entire first book pretty blatantly contradicts the timeline of the show itself. Ignoring those kinds of things, I totally agree with the "Clancy" ending critique, and, yes, stopping the disaster before it gets going is weak sauce. So many other ways he could have reached the same point.

There are aspects of the Technomage trilogy that never made sense to me.
 
Yeah, pretty dead on here lately.

Well, it's been 11 years since "Crusade" went down.

Updates from JMS, when there are any,

are few and FAR between, and almost always are not about B5 or Crusade.




After "Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers" and "Babylon 5: The Lost Tales," I'm not so sure.


I found Crusade anything but boring, though. If JMS' storytelling tended to build up conflict and then diffuse it all (I hate that), then I would agree, it's been done before. But given the number of wars we saw in B5, I'd say Crusade would have had its own share of galactic mayhem. EarthForce's murderous Shadow hybrid ships; a certain bone-headed race they were built to fight; Psi Corps on the run with nowhere to go, unless you've read 'The Nautilus Coil'... Just like B5, there are so many indications in Crusade of what's out there, and where it was all headed. I was pleasantly surprised with how different Crusade turned out to be from B5. Of all the loose ends in the B5 universe, this is the storyline that needs to be finished, and I am not referring to the Drakh plague. Okay, okay, the Telepath War, too.

Agreed, but I also want to see the Drakh plague resolved.


The newer storylines begun in Lost Tales and Legend of the Rangers were far less interesting.

I find the new storyline begun in Legend of the Rangers to be completely uninteresting. Hope we never see that again. As for Lost Tales, the Centauri storyline holds more promise, and was more interesting.

I suppose it comes down to a matter of faith. Do you trust the guy to be able to tell a compelling story set in that universe, or do you think he's done? Clearly *he* didn't think he was done, but artists misjudge their talents all the time, so even if he's got more to say, it might not be worth your time.

For me, personally, he's given me a lot. B5 was a watershed.
 
Yup, at first (like most I guess) I was hoping for more, but looking at what turned up, and all things considered I’m happy with what we got.

Though to this day (once it was confirmed that no one has ever asked him), I can’t for the life of me understand why some talented and hungry writer can’t pick up the reigns and write stuff for the same ‘verse. I’d be very surprised that no one would be interested in doing it - jms could act as consultant or exec producer. I hope it isn’t some bull shit reason about legacies and fame.

Here’s a question.

Some of you have read the stuff on the 15th script book about the early story ideas. For something that wasn’t going to have any cute kids the sequel was going to be interesting. But the original idea for the show (and sequel) did sound a bit . . . well shit and full of stereotypes (even with it being broad stokes), especially when considering some of the very clever twists and turns that we got on screen. Here’s a thing, he’s often been touted as a free ranging consultant (who did hang around B5 for years, don’t think he was around LoTR or TLT), but only a couple of things have ever been attributed to him as far as I know.

(Prepares to run for cover ; )
I wonder how much input Harlan Ellison really did provide for the show!?
 
Here’s a thing, he’s often been touted as a free ranging consultant (who did hang around B5 for years, don’t think he was around LoTR or TLT), but only a couple of things have ever been attributed to him as far as I know.

(Prepares to run for cover ; )
I wonder how much input Harlan Ellison really did provide for the show!?

From what I can tell, it's pretty hard to quantify. My feeling is that a large part of what he did was throw ideas out and it was up to JMS and the rest to decide what to go with. JMS wrote:

Harlan is our conceptual consultant. His job is to sit perched on
my shoulder like Jiminy Cricket and point out to me the chuckholes,
detours, and disasters-in-the-making that I might otherwise stumble into
as I galumph my way through this show...and to harangue me and keep me
on the SF straight and narrow and to challenge me constantly to do better.

He also reviews stories, helped write the opening narration, has
given us several good concepts on the running of the B5 station, and
otherwise...well...consults conceptually.

jms

We know that he wrote a 'manifesto' to be given to the aspiring B5 writers (different from the writer's bible) and the Ombuds were his idea as well as the Shadow planet killer. He helped write the opening sequence (and the closing PTEN narration) and gave notes on the scripts.

Jan
 
Though to this day (once it was confirmed that no one has ever asked him), I can’t for the life of me understand why some talented and hungry writer can’t pick up the reigns and write stuff for the same ‘verse. I’d be very surprised that no one would be interested in doing it - jms could act as consultant or exec producer. I hope it isn’t some bull shit reason about legacies and fame.
I recall Joe saying recently that he'd love to see a reboot, or a next generation style Babylon 5 at some point. It's just that it's up to WB, since they own the show.

Here’s a thing, he’s often been touted as a free ranging consultant (who did hang around B5 for years, don’t think he was around LoTR or TLT),
Harlan wasn't on Crusade either.

I wonder how much input Harlan Ellison really did provide for the show!?
Probably plenty; he did sign on for all five years. But if Harlan was coming up with the twists and turns in the arc, you'd hear it loud and clear from him. The input of a conceptual consultant is more on the level of giving any notes that are necessary (e.g. "Frankiln should get laid on a first date", "this scene is boring", "that music isn't right", "we should make cooler uniforms.") Michael Piller did a similar thing for Deep Space Nine when he left the show, writing notes on every single script for the remainder, even though Ira Steven Behr was more or less in charge from that point.
 
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Yup, at first (like most I guess) I was hoping for more, but looking at what turned up, and all things considered I’m happy with what we got.

Though to this day (once it was confirmed that no one has ever asked him), I can’t for the life of me understand why some talented and hungry writer can’t pick up the reigns and write stuff for the same ‘verse. I’d be very surprised that no one would be interested in doing it - jms could act as consultant or exec producer. I hope it isn’t some bull shit reason about legacies and fame.

Here’s a question.

Some of you have read the stuff on the 15th script book about the early story ideas. For something that wasn’t going to have any cute kids the sequel was going to be interesting. But the original idea for the show (and sequel) did sound a bit . . . well shit and full of stereotypes (even with it being broad stokes), especially when considering some of the very clever twists and turns that we got on screen. Here’s a thing, he’s often been touted as a free ranging consultant (who did hang around B5 for years, don’t think he was around LoTR or TLT), but only a couple of things have ever been attributed to him as far as I know.

(Prepares to run for cover ; )
I wonder how much input Harlan Ellison really did provide for the show!?

I talked extensively to Harlan about that very thing last November. I was interviewing him for the site. He told me that his job was primarily to watch the rough cuts of the episodes, and basically scan them for anything that struck him as just being a bit off. He was the one who suggested wind and bugs in the Garden, he was the guy who got the name changed from "Cryogenics" to "Cryonics" for the storage facility, etc. He said that it was mostly little stuff, providing another set of eyes slightly distanced from the project, to give some oversight and perspective. He did some other stuff from time to time. I think, but don't know, that he came up with the Ombudsmen, for instance, but in general his job was basically scanning the ep for random things that jumped out at him.

He was pretty emphatic that 'It was Joe's show, and anything good that came out of it was Joe's doing, I was just a hired gun there.' (I paraphrase slightly).

As to another writer coming in and taking over, you know, I kinda' wish that would happen. Blasphemy to say it, I know, but I'd like to see Joss Whedon's take on "Crusade," or Wright/Cooper from Stargate take a crack at "Rangers," or someone taking on a completely new story.
 
Thanks for that Jan, JoeD80 and Republibot. It’s one of those things I never really thought about until quite recently.
 
Republibot, I agree, B5 was indeed a watershed. Few fictional works have gotten in my head and kept rattling around with such energy for years afterward. So complex, so thoughtful, so innovative and imaginative. And for that, I too am thankful.

But it's also like crack, and I want more!

Raw Shark

"They're all crazy. Just pick one."
Unknown
 
Republibot, I agree, B5 was indeed a watershed. Few fictional works have gotten in my head and kept rattling around with such energy for years afterward. So complex, so thoughtful, so innovative and imaginative. And for that, I too am thankful.

But it's also like crack, and I want more!

Raw Shark

"They're all crazy. Just pick one."
Unknown

Agreed. Must have more sweet, sweet crack. Alas, the crackhouse appears to have burned to the ground and the neighborhood has been gentrified, so I doubt it's gonna' happen.

Say, wasn't JMS working on a new comic book a few years back? Whatever became of that?
 
It never happened. He was asked a couple of times about a B5 universe comic at New York Comic-Con and said that none were planned.

Jan
 
Yeah, really glad we were told for years that project was going to happen... sheesh.

Raw Shark

"Don't worry Mr. Mayor, we'll find that nuclear weapon faster than Garfield finds lasagna!"
Col. Hapablap, The Simpsons
 
I think for years that it was. JMS mentioned zigging and zagging the story to accommodate TMoS, for instance. Chances are, the contract simply expired.

Jan
 

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