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Old May 25th 03, 00:53   #1
RW7427
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Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

I know I said in a thread here someplace that I don't really watch B5 to anylize it, but after watching an ep tonight, I have some questions. I thought I'd post them here to see what everyone else thinks.

In Walkabout, Sheridan has a meeting with the War Council about using telepathic signals to block a Shadow vessel. He proposes that they go and try it, and asks Lyta to come along. Now in the meeting, you see Kosh 2, or Ulkesh, as I think it is. My question then is this: I'm sure that the Vorlons know a teep can block a Shadow vessel. That is probably why they created them. But what I want to know is, what do they think about Sheridan and company discovering that fact? Did they plan to use the teeps one day themselves in future battles with the Shadows, or did they hope that one of the younger races, such as the humans, would one day discover this fact? If they did, then how would they react to Sheridan using against the Shadows? It isn't shown what they think, but I wonder what that might be. Were they happy that Sheridan came across this fact, or did they decide to just watch him and see what he would do?

If anyone has any thoughts on this matter, I'd like to hear them.
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Old May 25th 03, 00:53   #2
RW7427
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Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

I know I said in a thread here someplace that I don't really watch B5 to anylize it, but after watching an ep tonight, I have some questions. I thought I'd post them here to see what everyone else thinks.

In Walkabout, Sheridan has a meeting with the War Council about using telepathic signals to block a Shadow vessel. He proposes that they go and try it, and asks Lyta to come along. Now in the meeting, you see Kosh 2, or Ulkesh, as I think it is. My question then is this: I'm sure that the Vorlons know a teep can block a Shadow vessel. That is probably why they created them. But what I want to know is, what do they think about Sheridan and company discovering that fact? Did they plan to use the teeps one day themselves in future battles with the Shadows, or did they hope that one of the younger races, such as the humans, would one day discover this fact? If they did, then how would they react to Sheridan using against the Shadows? It isn't shown what they think, but I wonder what that might be. Were they happy that Sheridan came across this fact, or did they decide to just watch him and see what he would do?

If anyone has any thoughts on this matter, I'd like to hear them.
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Old May 25th 03, 02:13   #3
A_M_Swallow
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Re: Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

I believe that telepaths were deliberately designed to jam Shadow Ships.

If "Walkabout" is shown before "War Without End" then not only was this a design aim but the Vorlons know that their weapon works.

It was the development of telepathic genes that sent the million year old Vorlon-Shadow Wars into endgame. Babylon 4, 5, the Great Machine, Valen and Sheridan were just the icing on the cake.
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Old May 25th 03, 02:13   #4
A_M_Swallow
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Re: Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

I believe that telepaths were deliberately designed to jam Shadow Ships.

If "Walkabout" is shown before "War Without End" then not only was this a design aim but the Vorlons know that their weapon works.

It was the development of telepathic genes that sent the million year old Vorlon-Shadow Wars into endgame. Babylon 4, 5, the Great Machine, Valen and Sheridan were just the icing on the cake.
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Old May 25th 03, 12:53   #5
Strifeguard
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Re: Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

I believe "Walkabout" also includes the line about how no Vorlon had died in "a very long time".

I think that the Vorlons probablyhad methods that could jam shadow vessels on their own, but at a certain point, putting Vorlons on the front lines no longer became acceptable. Telepaths were bread in order to allow other races to stand against the Shadows, protecting Vorlon lives/goals. That's more-or-less what the rest of the war is about. The Vorlon and Shadow fleets conduct operations against each others forces more-or-less indirectly.

After all, why should the Shadows expend their own ships when the Centauri are just as willing? And why should the Vorlons expend their forces when the Alliance is willing to?

What I'm always far more curious about is the war that happened 1000 years before the events on Babylon 5. We know that other first ones were still around, and we know that telepaths wouldn't show up for another 800 years or so ( I can't remember exactly when, but supposedly the major worlds all developed telepaths simultaneously because of the Vorlons)

Plus, we recieved hints that the Shadows are "older" than the other "first ones" kind of like the Minbari of their group of races. Also, in War Without End, we're told that the Shadows come VERY close to winning the war 1000 years prior (i.e. they would have stalemated at the very least if B4 hadn't gone back in time)

Anyway, the sense I always got was that the war 1000 years prior to B5 was such a toll on the Vorlons (who probably bore the brunt of the war, since the Minbari were still young, and the other races wanted out of the galaxy) that they set their sites specifically on how to win the next war without losing more Vorlons than they had too.

Thus, they bread telepaths, they built the Planet destroyer (also interesting because beforehand they merely "drove off" the shadows, which would suggest some kind of ground-combat function on the part of the Vorlons), and they continued to manipulate the younger races into trusting them without question.
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Old May 25th 03, 12:53   #6
Strifeguard
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Re: Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

I believe "Walkabout" also includes the line about how no Vorlon had died in "a very long time".

I think that the Vorlons probablyhad methods that could jam shadow vessels on their own, but at a certain point, putting Vorlons on the front lines no longer became acceptable. Telepaths were bread in order to allow other races to stand against the Shadows, protecting Vorlon lives/goals. That's more-or-less what the rest of the war is about. The Vorlon and Shadow fleets conduct operations against each others forces more-or-less indirectly.

After all, why should the Shadows expend their own ships when the Centauri are just as willing? And why should the Vorlons expend their forces when the Alliance is willing to?

What I'm always far more curious about is the war that happened 1000 years before the events on Babylon 5. We know that other first ones were still around, and we know that telepaths wouldn't show up for another 800 years or so ( I can't remember exactly when, but supposedly the major worlds all developed telepaths simultaneously because of the Vorlons)

Plus, we recieved hints that the Shadows are "older" than the other "first ones" kind of like the Minbari of their group of races. Also, in War Without End, we're told that the Shadows come VERY close to winning the war 1000 years prior (i.e. they would have stalemated at the very least if B4 hadn't gone back in time)

Anyway, the sense I always got was that the war 1000 years prior to B5 was such a toll on the Vorlons (who probably bore the brunt of the war, since the Minbari were still young, and the other races wanted out of the galaxy) that they set their sites specifically on how to win the next war without losing more Vorlons than they had too.

Thus, they bread telepaths, they built the Planet destroyer (also interesting because beforehand they merely "drove off" the shadows, which would suggest some kind of ground-combat function on the part of the Vorlons), and they continued to manipulate the younger races into trusting them without question.
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Old May 25th 03, 14:10   #7
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Re: Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

Quote:
I believe "Walkabout" also includes the line about how no Vorlon had died in "a very long time".
The line may or may not be in "Walkabout", but it is certainly said somewhere. But this isn't because the Vorlons protected themselves with telepaths. It is because the "rules of engagement" prohibited direct battles between the Vorlons and the Shadows. Also because the Vorlons, unlike the Shadows, do not seem to have personally engaged in combat against the younger races. Given that these facts, plus the fact that the Vorlons are physically tougher than the Shadows, and you end up with very few Vorlon deaths. (It takes several Shadows to kill Kosh I, a dozen or more armed EarthForce types, plus Sheridan, what's left of Kosh I and Lorien to kill Kosh II. A couple of Centauri can blow a pair of Shadows away with standard military issue weapons.)

Regards,

Joe
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Old May 25th 03, 14:10   #8
Joseph DeMartino
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Re: Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

Quote:
I believe "Walkabout" also includes the line about how no Vorlon had died in "a very long time".
The line may or may not be in "Walkabout", but it is certainly said somewhere. But this isn't because the Vorlons protected themselves with telepaths. It is because the "rules of engagement" prohibited direct battles between the Vorlons and the Shadows. Also because the Vorlons, unlike the Shadows, do not seem to have personally engaged in combat against the younger races. Given that these facts, plus the fact that the Vorlons are physically tougher than the Shadows, and you end up with very few Vorlon deaths. (It takes several Shadows to kill Kosh I, a dozen or more armed EarthForce types, plus Sheridan, what's left of Kosh I and Lorien to kill Kosh II. A couple of Centauri can blow a pair of Shadows away with standard military issue weapons.)

Regards,

Joe
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Old May 25th 03, 16:24   #9
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Re: Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

My question is this: since the telepaths weren't used by the Minbari in the last war, how precisely did the Minbari and their allies take down the Shadows back then?

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Old May 25th 03, 16:24   #10
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Re: Vorlons and jamming Shadow vessels

My question is this: since the telepaths weren't used by the Minbari in the last war, how precisely did the Minbari and their allies take down the Shadows back then?

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