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Old November 27th 02, 03:22   #21
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

As far as the question of Kosh appearing as an angel goes, I have always had the idea that the Vorlons tampered with all the younger races in such a way that we can't help but see them as angelic. I never thought it was a disguise but rather millenia old Vorlon tampering. Am I wrong?
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Old November 27th 02, 03:33   #22
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

In fact Joe,

Even if the garden WAS in Red sector and Green sector (or between them as someone said) people wouldnt need windows to look in the garden, they would need skylights. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Just think about the rotation of the station for a second. Even at that, people would be walking on their windows.

(the above assumes that people arent in some buildings IN the garden, which you dont see many of those near where the event happened)
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Old November 27th 02, 04:05   #23
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

Telepaths were developed by the Vorlons, perhaps all teeps are programmed to see the Vorlon's as Angels no matter what. Remember, the telepaths are the Vorlon's weapons, they must keep them inline somehow.
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Old November 27th 02, 04:09   #24
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

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(A) Kosh didn't want to be seen at all. Delenn had to beg him to help, and even then he waited until the last possible second. (B) Kosh didn't need to make a spectacle of himself to large numbers of people in order to encourage the alien governments to support Sheridan. The alien ambassadors were all gathered in the Garden to hear Sheridan deliver his apology. The ambassadors are the one who count in getting their governments to support Sheridan. Showing them what is in Kosh's encounter suit was all that was needed to achieve the goal you suggest.
Governments need support from the people. To get this witnesses who are independent of the government need to see an unusual event. To get action the government's own witnesses - the ambassadors - also need to be present.

Quote:

The Garden may be near Red sector, but that doesn't mean all of Red sector has some kind of giant window that looks into the Garden. Most of B5's many levels are nowhere near the central core, and few have any way of looking "up" into it. And you'd have to be looking straight up (as the folks in the Garden were) to see anything.


Now, did Kosh wait until the last possible moment to reduce the number of people who can see him or did Kosh wait until the largest possible number of people had run into the streets?

Since all of Babylon 5 is indoors the streets are unlikely to have covers, permitting several miles of the central monorail to be seen from ground level.

The Centauri decide to kill the Captain of Babylon 5 under conditions that allow large numbers of its inhabitants to watch whilst being observed by all the ambassadors and only a religious being can save him. This may be coincidence or it may have taken careful organisation by Kosh. My belief is that Kosh controlled it.
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Old November 27th 02, 04:24   #25
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

I seem to have started quite the discussion here. [img]/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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Old November 27th 02, 10:58   #26
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

I can't remember the other form you guys talk about.
I remember there was this fight but the image in my mind isn't clear.

Anyone here got a scaned image of the vorlon's "true" form?
please?

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Old November 27th 02, 13:02   #27
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

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I have always had the idea that the Vorlons tampered with all the younger races in such a way that we can't help but see them as angelic.
Then why didn't any of the human security guards who were shooting the hell out of him see Kosh II as an angel?

Andrew: Is everything a Vorlon conspiracy with you? [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hint: When JMS wants to set up something important in his story, he generally provides at least one concrete clue to it on screen. Theories that depend entirely on assumptions about things that we are never shown have something approaching a zero probability of being true.

I think Kosh waited until the last possible second because he was trying to figure out some way of saving Sheridan without leaving his suit. (Or figuring out if there was some way to let Sheridan die and still win the war. Either would probably have been fine with him at that stage.) I don't think he gave any consideration to the exact number of people who might be standing around.

The interior surface of the central core is largely given over to agriculture, both to provide food and to generate oxygen. There don't seem to be all that many buildings or streets. True, several miles of the monorail are visible to observers on the surface. But how clearly can you make out an individual human from several miles away? 90% of the folks who could theoretically see the monorail are going to be too far away from the action to see anything.

Regards,

Joe
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Old November 27th 02, 15:20   #28
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

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But if you were dying, would you worry about how you looked? That's like saying,"Oh my God, I have a hair out of place" in the middle of a heart attack
Given the Vorlon's collective view of themselves and their place in the universe, their long term mission, and how the way in which the younger races view them is tied into all of that .... I don't think that is the right analogy.

I think that a more comparable situation would be: It's like worrying about whether your country's flag will touch the ground when you have been shot on a bttlefield. Over the years many people have done things when they were about to die that they wouldn't otherwise have done because of that little bit of symbolism.
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Old November 27th 02, 21:04   #29
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

I may be totally off base here, but I always thought the strain on Kosh in the garden scene came from having to manipulate a group of people to each see a different 'angel'. The Minbari saw an angel with a Minbari face, the Drazi saw a Drazi face, the Narn and Narn face and so on.

Projecting one image, to however many people, would probably be easy. Projecting multiple images simultaneously would be quite a feat [img]/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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Old November 28th 02, 01:46   #30
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Re: Kosh and Lyta

Spoilers

P

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Quote:
Andrew: Is everything a Vorlon conspiracy with you?


Yes. To a first approximation. The second approximation brings in the Shadow conspiracies and things just did not work today.

The third approximation is bye bye Shadows and Vorlons; Sheridan is the boss now.

Going back to the opening lines of Babylon 5 The Gathering -
"I was there, at the dawn of the Third Age of Mankind."

Basic arc for millions of years the "Second" Ones have fought the Shadows and have now achieved First One status. A million years ago work started on raising the Third Ones to First One status. The Vorlons and Shadows were chosen for this task.

The Vorlons have come up with a Master Plan. A plan that will last thousands of years. It will involve the creation of jump gates all over the galaxy, converting animals into sentient beings, making the sentients telepathic and in the final stages the creation of the Babylon stations under the control of the key race the humans.

Third Ones task - "Z'ha'dum" and Sheridan's briefing when he gets back to Babylon 5.
Jump gates - "Into the Fire" and the background information in the card game.
Animals into Sentients - magazine story "Nautilus Coil".
Sentients telepathic - "Secrets of the Soul".
Humans the key - "In the Beginning".

Vorlons plan Babylon 4 and 5 - this is the missing bit. The Vorlons turn up at the end of "War Without End - Part 2". Kosh arrives in "The Gathering" having helped pay for Babylon 5, Kosh tells Morden and his Shadows that Babylon 5 is not for them in "Signs and Portents". The Vorlons provide technology for the Whitestars in book #9 "To Dream in the City of Sorrows".

This all adds up to a very big conspiracy and like all big conspiracies it fall apart in the end.
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