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Old June 3rd 02, 04:32   #11
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Re: 20 years

Lorien said "Maybe 20 years, no more".

Anyway, Sheridan going beyond the rim kind of added to his God like quality that he gained in season 4. It was almost the logical end. The concept is not unsimilar to a God of Rome allowing a mere human into Mt. Olympus.

Besides, its my conjecture that both Delenn and Sinclair/Valen got this same treatment.

It was stated that Valen's body was never found =).
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Old June 3rd 02, 09:54   #12
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Re: 20 years

In fact, Sheridan was for some time in a transitional state between living and dying. Maybe in this state, Sheridan could make the choice if he wanted to be catched by Lorien or not. But this still doesn't explain why Lorien could only extend his life for 20 years.
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Old June 3rd 02, 10:10   #13
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Re: 20 years

My approach is somewhat different.

If one person deserves exceptional treatment, surely the universe contains countless people who deserve similar, or even better treatment, but never receive that.

The world has seen many people who have tried building a better future, and often succeeded, but never wished nor received rewards beyond those which life may offer, but often denies (and the knowledge of their choices having helped others).

Therefore in my eyes, the entire assumption of "going beyond the Rim" would diminish the meaning of Sheridan's choices. Extending that assumption to others would diminish their choices too. In case of Valen, it would actually remove all meaning, because he probably knew his fate beforehand, due to records provided by Zathras.

In my eyes, the important question is elsewhere, not in Lorien telling the truth or lying, not in healing abilities, not in 20 years more or less. Perhaps the important question is doing something good... even if the world doesn't return that. Even if the benefit is not immediate, or entirely left to others.

Because for beings like Shadows/Vorlons, building a future is efficient & profitable business. They are likely to see that future. In my eyes, a question of much more importance is this: why should a temporary creature build a better future?
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Old June 3rd 02, 11:10   #14
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Re: 20 years

You have some real problems agains God and the afterlife, don't you [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
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Old June 3rd 02, 11:29   #15
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Re: 20 years

Belief is a strange animal is it not? If I'm not much mistaken Lorien gave Sheridan part of his own life force which equates to roughly 20 earth standard years. It is quite possible that Sheridan's mass was shredded as a result of a number of external forces: radiation, gravity, etc, etc.
Now there is a school of though on what happens when we die. The body releases a great deal of energy seeing as our basic make up involves hydrogen bonds. When the body dies these bonds come apart, this energy is released but where does it go? Some scientists believe this is what causes out of body experiences, in order for the proverbial spirit to "rise" does it not stand to reason that it would need a boost of some sort?
Our bodies are designed in such a way that everything has a purpose and for every purpose a counter purpose. The cardinal rule of the universe as we understand it is that energy doesn't go away, it merely changes it's form.
What if Lorien gave Sheridan enough energy to hold his life force in place in order to accomplish what needed to be done?
When this time period was up his "spirit" would be released. Maybe lorien knew the direction of our development in the future (energy beings similar to the vorlons) and Sheridan would be our predecessor of sorts.
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Old June 3rd 02, 12:09   #16
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Re: 20 years

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
<font color=yellow>I have never seen the point in "joining Lorien beyond the Rim". In my opinion, it would actually diminish what Sheridan gave to create something better. He did not choose his actions to receive rewards or exceptional treatment. He chose them after consideration, because they were right.

The other problem:

Lorien quite clearly implied that it could not (would not) become some galactic healer. The reason: what one deserves, another deserves too. It healed Sheridan because of the situation where/when/how he died, and because he found someone worth living for...

Lorien told that one day, Sheridan would stop. It told this in a manner which Sheridan and Delenn clearly understood as death. To have anything else happen would create several implications, some of them quite unexpected:

1. Lorien lied to Sheridan.
2. Lorien lied to Delenn.
3. Lorien had motives for being dishonest.
4. By being dishonest, Lorien took unwarranted risks.
5. Shadows or Vorlons could have discovered/used that lie.

I consider it very unlikely for a being as experienced as Lorien, especially in such a situation, to pursue such a course.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

I would look at it like this (and I do [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] ): Lorien is ALMOST CERTAINLY manipulating things, not being entirely forthright (sound like another acient race or two??) and such. But it seems like it is like a parent that is more knowledgable, dealing with their childern, telling them what does them the most good, saying it in ways that will work for them, and leaving out things that might distract them. I will not say whether it is the right way to do things in those circumstances, but it IS done and I suspect done by Lorien as well.
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Old June 3rd 02, 15:54   #17
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Re: 20 years

Don't trust the ancients. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Or women...
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Old June 3rd 02, 16:52   #18
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Re: 20 years

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GenevaRanger:
<font color=yellow>But this still doesn't explain why Lorien could only extend his life for 20 years.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Lorien said he could not create life but rather just give a boost to already existing life, to maintain it for awhile (like Sheridan's body was maintaining the fragment of Kosh). It appears that Sheridan's internal ability to keep his body functioning, had been destroyed, and once the "charge" that Lorien gave Sheridan ran out, Sheridan's body would just "stop."
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Old June 3rd 02, 16:59   #19
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Re: 20 years


No problems at all, except realism. I prefer explanations which I can take seriously. Something which might be possible. Together with that comes my dislike for unrealistic explanations. Perhaps the following rambling somewhat explains my point of view.


Indeed, a very interesting matter... but the school of thought you mentioned is clearly flawed. When considering such issues, one should keep in mind three concepts.

<font color=yellow>Energy.
Information.</font color=yellow>

You mentioned the laws of matter and energy, but forgot information. While matter and energy are constant in closed systems, information is not. In closed systems, information can only decrease, because entropy increases. Remember the concept of entropy? All processes increase overall entropy, the opposite of organized information.

Sadly enough, what we consider soul is exactly what entropy destroys: organized information. Memories, experiences, personality, thoughts, ideas, desires. They are all information. Organized information trying to understand itself and the world. Entropy destroys that, unless matter stores and energy maintains it.

Energy and matter remain constant (forever changing their form) but entropy only increases. Using energy and matter can locally decrease entropy (plants collect sunlight and build intricate structures of life). But the price is always greater overall entropy (the Sun wastes huge amounts of energy in absolutely random manner).

The same applies to sentient beings. To maintain and change ourselves, we must feed ourselves and repair our bodies. Again, energy and matter preserve and transform information, by creating greater overall entropy.

Now you might ask: how does that relate to soul? Very directly. We define soul as information. Information cannot exist without media. The media of our soul is our brain, billions of cells and countless billions connections, each cell and connection in constant change.

That is our soul, information flowing in natural computers. We download it from the environment in the process of learning. We change and modify what we learned, explore and create something new. Eventually, we pass it back. Back to the world, and other creatures like ourselves. Not as abstract and impossible soul, <font color=yellow>but quite real choices, words and deeds.</font color=yellow>

Depending on conditions, much of soul may actually die before body, should the brain carrying it wear out. When life ends, this information cannot escape entropy. Because media fails, energy disappears and change stops. Hard disks can withstand this for years, paper for centuries, metal and stone for millennia. The human brain can withstand it too... for minutes.

Unlike energy and matter, information is not constant, even in closed systems. In processing systems adapted to constant learning and change, it lasts mere minutes before disintegrating. Its disintegration cannot constitute transfer. Why? Because the trace of energy which escapes is random and chaotic, and far too weak.

To read and transfer the huge amount of information maintained by a human mind, you would need immensely greater energy. Why? Because such transfers of information, especially to/from systems like brain, is usually slow, painful and inefficient. Learning is always difficult. Forgetting is easy. Because one goes against entropy, while the other goes along.

This is why I consider such concepts unrealistic, and also the concept of telepathy (beyond remote messaging and sensing current intent). They require processes which go against everything we know about information and entropy.

If anything remains of soul, it is what passed back to the world. The part accepted by new generations, the part which created the world they live in. This part continues its eternal change, its quest for understanding perhaps? Not the part which faded from a dead body. The part which was given back to the world via choices and words and deeds... hopefully beneficial deeds which created a better future...
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Old June 4th 02, 09:39   #20
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Re: 20 years

You know what Lennier? you honestly have me there. The flaw you pointed out is one that I have considered before. This may sound like a cop out but think about this. A soul in essence is a distillation of everything we are. If humans existed solely on the data transfer theory. We would then be carbon copies of our parents , sharing in a collective store of data, adding each experience to the collective! (resistance is futile, you will be assimilated [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]). You seem like the type of person that prefers evidence and explanations. This is by no means a bad thing considering how much can be accomplished with logic and order but at a certain point uncertainty will replace conviction and that's where my spin comes in!
I am by no means a religious zealot running around throwing the word of God into everyone's face. I neither believe nor disbelieve in God. I guess I'm one of those poor lost souls destined for purgatory(at the very best). I do however believe in a higher power. To what extent does this affect us? I have no idea but for us to end abruptly is not enough of an explanation. A possibility is that this energy that is released is a distillation of our individual selves that has finally been released. A caterpillar is a step in the life cycle of a butterfly. Is the butterfly a caterpillar. Yes and no. It needed that step to become what it is but it is no longer the same as it was. We may move on to a higher level of existence. One we labeled heaven and hell simply because our minds are too simple to comprehend the reality. Faith in the unknown has to take over from conviction in the known
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