Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

[Looney]

Originally Posted by Jan

JMS has said in the past that often *not* showing something makes it even more effective since our brains fill in the gaps. I guess the question would be whether it would serve the story in some way to show it? I'm not able to think of much use for showing it.

I agree, BUT I feel people who might be new fans to the show seem to be about defining things, as has been discussed in this thread. I know MANY fans are all about which race could defeat which race and who was stronger. They want to know who might have actually won the war if it played out until a definite victor could be proclaimed. And could humans defeat the Centauri and blah, blah, blah. Point - people would like to be able to define which race, as individuals, was physically superior - Shadows or Vorlons. So showing said scene might have given them some guidance.... and completely taken away all the nuance of what happened. If it had been shown to us then we probably wouldn't still be talking about it today. It wouldn't be one of those great things they did with the narrative; it would just be something that happened. Plus if we saw it and didn't see how Kosh ended up with Sheridan then we would be asking how did that happen and so on.

Okay so after saying all of that about why not showing it was better I think if it were happening today JMS would be getting some pressure to show it from external forces. Someone would say "You have to show what happens because people won't understand. Plus people like fight scenes."

Any other opinions?

In case it hasn't become clear, I am in perfect as it is camp.

[Looney]

Hmmmmm.... it was a promising topic, but then everyone's opinions went away.

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Interesting math with flawed premises. Why assume Sheridan or the Centauri guards killed any Shadows? In The Long Dark the shadow warrior ate ppg fire from a half dozen weapons and came back for more repeatedly. My assumption is that the Shadows in both incidents responded to the weapons fire like we would to weak pepper spray - back away, blink it off and try again. Sheridan they wanted alive, so he gets kind words from Anna and the veiled threat of her escorts. As for the Morden incident - they had much bigger problems to deal with about one minute after the shooting thanks to Londo and his mushroom clouds.

But that's just my opinion.

[Looney]

(HEY SINCLAIR! Someone new from Indiana just showed up. LOL) Bet you are both sorry you don't have the pleasure of living here in Illinois....

Welcome JohnGaunt3.0 - What have you done with 1.0 and 2.0?!?!?!?!

Originally Posted by JohnGaunt3.0

In The Long Dark the shadow warrior ate ppg fire from a half dozen weapons and came back for more repeatedly. My assumption is that the Shadows in both incidents responded to the weapons fire like we would to weak pepper spray - back away, blink it off and try again.

Interesting. I've always thought of The Shadow ally from THE LONG DARK as something physiologically different from The Shadows themselves, but I guess the visual spectrum aspect likely means they are probably very close in that regard.

[Karajorma]

I'd kind of expect for it to be possible that a shadow warrior might be tougher than a shadow though.

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Bigger certainly, tougher - maybe, but orders of magnitude tougher - i doubt.

It's not obvious to me that visible is a Shadow's natural state. Maybe they're hiding while escorting Morden, maybe they're only visible when they need you to see them. On the White Star during the final confrontation, the Shadow is visible and the Vorlon is suited - both projections of what they want you to see & hiding their true forms?

Either way, in terms of Vorlons vs Shadows, I don't think either side really KNEW which way things would go in a straight up fight. It's easy to talk bold, but you only put all your chips on the table when you're desperate (or stupid).

[Karajorma]

It is also worth remembering that Sheridan had been trained by Kosh in how to fight First Ones. He might not have realized at the time but it's possible that a lot of stuff clicked into place the first time he was confronted with one.



Doesn't explain how Londo was able to do it though.

[Moonface]

Originally Posted by NorrinRadd

2 Shadows > 1 Vorlon

2 PPG rifles > 2 Shadows

1 Vorlon > multiple PPG rifles and more

The math doesn't work out. It's worse than Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.

I know I'm new here and normally I wouldn't come storming in and starting correcting people on the internet, but as a statistician my heart bleeds reading this last line, so I have to say something about it:

Let's consider Rock-Paper-Scissors
Rock beats Scissors
Scissors beat Paper
Paper beats Rock.

now: lets replace Rock with Vorlons, Scissors with PPG technology and Paper with Shadows, then we get:
Vorlons beat PPGs
PPgs beat Shadows
Shadows beat Vorlons

So it's not "worse" than Rock-Paper-Scissors, it's the very definition of it.

One can even define a system where Rock does not win against Scissors all the time, but most of the time (and the same being true for the other combinations)

Let's take 3 dice, each having 6 sides, but no numbers on them.
Paint the first die with the numbers 2, 2, 2, 5, 5, 5
the second one with 1, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4
and the third with 0, 3, 3, 3, 6, 6

that yields the following behavior:
A beats B, but not always, only 58.3% of the time.
the same is true for B vs C, and again für C vs. A

So it is feasible to have a system, where everyone can win against everyone, if they are lucky enough, but "normally" A wins vs B, B wins vs. C and C wins vs. A

P.S.: Please don't take this as a criticism of your interesting analysis of the scenes, I just had a bone to pick with the line "worse than rock-paper-scissors"

[Looney]

Well Moonface you do win a medal for breaking Looney's brain this morning. But as you will learn if you keep posting or keep reading, that isn't exactly the most difficult thing to do. I am a simple man.

[Moonface]

Originally Posted by Looney

Well Moonface you do win a medal for breaking Looney's brain this morning. But as you will learn if you keep posting or keep reading, that isn't exactly the most difficult thing to do. I am a simple man.

No worries, I can give you a simplified version:

If you play Rock-Paper-Scissors and you think of Vorlons as Rock. Then PPGs would be scissors and Shadows would be Paper, and everything works out.

(I added the complicated version with the dice for those who wanted to counter with "but PPGs did kill a Vorlon in the end...".)