A list of the not-so-good B5 Episodes

As much as I love B5, I have to admit, there are a few bad episodes, To start us off I can't stand the episode where Sheridan is captured and tortured (with the interogation guy with his sandwiches...) It never catched my imagination at all really...

Woundweaver

In the case of that episode (titled Intersections in Real Time) I think that it is more an issue of personal tastes and preferences than of it being a poorly done episode. Though it didn't catch your fancy, it does what it does and depicts what it depicts (that being an interogation designed to break the subject completely while leaving them physically intact enough to still usable for propaganda purposes; someting which applies in current world quite apart from the SF universe of B5) very well. In fact, it is so effective that I know there are people who have trouble re-watching it because it is too painful to watch, not because it is a weak episode.

Weak episodes in the series include Infection, Grey 17 Is Missing, and TKO. The thing is that in B5 even the weak episodes have their good points. Grey 17 is bad when it is dealing with Grey 17 (though, pesonally, I find the closing conversation between Garibaldi and Sheridan amusing); but the B plot with Delenn, Leneir, Marcus, and Neroon is really quite good. TKO has relatively interesting character development of its B story leading to Ivanova sitting shiva for her father. Even Infection (my personal least favorite episode of the entire series) has the long term arc relavance of being the episode that introduces the concept (later to become quite important) of organic technology ("coincidentally" developed 1000 years ago).

I felt compelled to respond to this thread because "Intersections In Real Time" is one of my favourite episodes. I find the episode very realistic and the writing and acting of the absolutely highest standard.

As for weak shows I would single out TKO as the weakest one. I do not like either the A or B story. The only merit of the show in my view is when Garibaldi is told to watch his back which is of course a subtle hint for the future.

It is actually similiar to Grail in that respect as Delenn keeps telling Sinclair about the importance of "true seekers" which is something Sinclair has clearly become when he returns in season 3.

In the case of that episode (titled Intersections in Real Time) I think that it is more an issue of personal tastes and preferences than of it being a poorly done episode. Though it didn't catch your fancy, it does what it does and depicts what it depicts (that being an interogation designed to break the subject completely while leaving them physically intact enough to still usable for propaganda purposes; someting which applies in current world quite apart from the SF universe of B5) very well. In fact, it is so effective that I know there are people who have trouble re-watching it because it is too painful to watch, not because it is a weak episode.

Weak episodes in the series include Infection, Grey 17 Is Missing, and TKO. The thing is that in B5 even the weak episodes have their good points. Grey 17 is bad when it is dealing with Grey 17 (though, pesonally, I find the closing conversation between Garibaldi and Sheridan amusing); but the B plot with Delenn, Leneir, Marcus, and Neroon is really quite good. TKO has relatively interesting character development of its B story leading to Ivanova sitting shiva for her father. Even Infection (my personal least favorite episode of the entire series) has the long term arc relavance of being the episode that introduces the concept (later to become quite important) of organic technology ("coincidentally" developed 1000 years ago).

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Ditto (Almost word for word)

I am one of those who although I appreciate how good Insections in Real Time is, it is difficult for me to watch as well because of the tone of it.

I agree with those who appreciate Intersections.

Regarding Infection, TKO, and Gray 17 is Missing, I have to agree that they are the weakest of the lot, but I find that there's something of merit in each.

In Infection, we have the introduction of organic technology and a possible connection to the Shadows (who was doing the invading that prompted the Ikaarans to build their warriors?). We also have Sinclair's speach about why we have to stay in space, which I find meaningful and moving. Finally, just as a sort of easter egg, Garibaldi mentions something about walking out of a desert, almost certainly speaking about his first meeting with Sinclair... which, we happen to know, runs very parallel with the backstory in "Messages From Earth."

TKO's main plotline is a little problematic and ultimately semi-pointless, but it tells us that some aliens don't like humans because of the way we do things. We also have the famous warning to Garibaldi. But I think the best part of that episode is Ivanova's character development. She continually rejects her past until she can't bear to do so any more, and then embraces her father's memory at last. It also shows us how alone she is in the world; her family is gone and she needs to rely on her friends, which she does by bringing Sinclair to the ceremony.

Gray 17 is Missing has the phenomenal Marcus/Delenn/Neroon plotline. And I recently watched the episode again, and while the whole "missing deck" story's a little silly, and both the Zarg and the Zarg's elimination are stupid, Jeremiah's amusingly insane.

In short, you can almost never dismiss a Babylon 5 episode entirely!

Like i said, "Intersections in Real Time" never really caught my imagniation, though i do agree in that pretty much every Babylon 5 Episode has it's good points. Personally I quite liked TKO, I thought the fight scenes were quite well choreographed and I thought the subplot with Ivanova was rather good. I agree with "Grey 17 is Missing" being pretty average (the begining is good with Garibaldi counting the floors though the rest i felt was quite poor.) and i can't say "Comes the Inquisitor" really got me either. Though there are many many episodes which are excelent that make up for these ones. (Pretty much any episode with the Shadows in of course stand out.) But everybody has their favorites and not so favorites...

Woundweaver

In Infection, we have the introduction of organic technology and a possible connection to the Shadows (who was doing the invading that prompted the Ikaarans to build their warriors?).

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I actually doubt that it was the Shadows who were invading, though the odds are high that might have been someone with Shadow backing and instigation (in the role the Centauri played in "our" Shadow War).

Given what their own technology is like, there is also the likelyhood that the Shadows had a hand in helping (whether directly or indirectly) with the development of the organic tech guardians.

In the case of that episode (titled Intersections in Real Time) I think that it is more an issue of personal tastes and preferences than of it being a poorly done episode.

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To a certain extent, I think you're right, but sometimes it's hard to put aside your personal taste. I, personally, don't like Intersections in Real Time much at all, but if I had to be objective, I guess I would admit it was well made--for what it was. For an episode that is "love-it-or-hate-it" to that extreme, I would say it at least averages out to mediocre.

A few weeks ago, I rated every episode using a 1 to 5 star scale, a 10 point scale, and a letter grade scale. If I were at home, I could tell you my least favorite episodes exactly, with the grades for each. But, I'm at work, so I'll have to do this off the top of my head.

My Top 10 Least-Favorite Episodes (as best I can remember)
* Soul Hunter
* Infection
* Believers
* A Spider in the Web
* Exogenesis
* Grey 17 is Missing
* Intersections in Real Time
* Secrets of the Soul
* The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father
* Day of the Dead

Soul Hunter and Believers tie as my least favorite of all with IiRT trailing right behind. Obviously, neither TKO nor Grail are on the list, because incredibly enough, I actually like them (some, not a lot). Exogenesis, TCiMtCiF, and Day of the Dead aren't exactly "bad" episodes as far as quality, so my personal tastes factor in the most with them.

For me only 'Grey 17 is missing' is really bad.

I actually doubt that it was the Shadows who were invading, though the odds are high that might have been someone with Shadow backing and instigation (in the role the Centauri played in "our" Shadow War).

Given what their own technology is like, there is also the likelyhood that the Shadows had a hand in helping (whether directly or indirectly) with the development of the organic tech guardians.

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Oh, I agree. I didn't mean to imply the Shadows were themselves doing the invading; I just suspect they were somehow involved.

If someone here didn't like Comes the Inquisitor, I think it's fairly obvious that this is all a matter of personal taste; Comes the Inquisitor was the episode that got me hooked on B5.

I actually doubt that it was the Shadows who were invading, though the odds are high that might have been someone with Shadow backing and instigation (in the role the Centauri played in "our" Shadow War).

Given what their own technology is like, there is also the likelyhood that the Shadows had a hand in helping (whether directly or indirectly) with the development of the organic tech guardians.

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Oh, I agree. I didn't mean to imply the Shadows were themselves doing the invading; I just suspect they were somehow involved.

If someone here didn't like Comes the Inquisitor, I think it's fairly obvious that this is all a matter of personal taste; Comes the Inquisitor was the episode that got me hooked on B5.

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While "Comes the Inquisitor" wasn't what got me hooked on B5 (I started watching with "The Gathering" and didn't stop ), I will say that CtI is by far one of the best dramatic eps of the series. Powerful, dark, mysterious, incredible message, wonderfully acted (are we surprised how good Alexander is as Sebastian? or Lorien for that matter?).

Anyway, it is true that even the pot-boilers have crucial or key elements for the arc hidden away in them or as B stories...which makes it hard not to watch them...you don't want to miss any element of the arc.

Although, I have to say TKO is by far the worst ep of the series. Now if the main story hadn't been WWF in space and had centered more on the Ivanova story, then it would've been much, much better.

CE

I agree on Believers, that episode never caught me at all, the plot just seems really thin and bland, you could tell what was going to happen for a long time before it happened. And spider in the web wasn't too hot either, in fact im watching it right now, though I say "watching" very loosely. =P

Nick

TKO and Grail spring to mind as for being not so good.

I hate Intersections in Real Time.

Although, I have to say TKO is by far the worst ep of the series. Now if the main story hadn't been WWF in space and had centered more on the Ivanova story, then it would've been much, much better.

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TKO never struck me as being "WWF in space". It always struck me as being Bloodsport (the Jean Claude Van Damme movie) in space.

While I liked the Ivanova B story much better, I wonder if it wasn't just as well that that was a B story (of some episode, not necessarily that one). The tone worked with well with the B story amount of time devoted to it. I think it might have come off as being a bit maudlin (for my taste, anyway) if it had gotten A story time.


I think the reason that I tend to put Infection at the top of my least favorite list (in most of my moods, anyway) is the following. For the vast majority of the episode, it is the one that plays as being the most generic. Change the names and it could be a weak episode of any of a half dozen shows. There are only 2 or 3 conversations that feel like they have the particular "voice" of B5 in them, and they are all in about the last 5 minutes of the episode: Garibaldi's talk to Sinclair about looking for something to die for, Sinclair's answer to "Should we bother?", and Ivanova's "Nobody reads Santiana any more" bit. Up until those last few minutes, it could jst as easily be a bad ST:TOS episode, a middling Andromeda episode, or just about anything else. On the bright side, at least that means that the ep ends with a comparitively decent final impression. I think that may be why it escapes being as roundly ripped as Grail and TKO.

For what it's worth: that is also the same reason that Jeremiah Crichton tops my list of least favorite Farscape episodes. The first time I saw it, I kept waiting for someone to just come out and yell "I am Kirock!".

A few weeks ago, I rated every episode using a 1 to 5 star scale, a 10 point scale, and a letter grade scale. If I were at home, I could tell you my least favorite episodes exactly, with the grades for each. But, I'm at work, so I'll have to do this off the top of my head.

My Top 10 Least-Favorite Episodes (as best I can remember).....

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I almost had it; I was only off by one. Paragon of Animals is in my bottom 10 instead of Exogenesis. Here's my corrected bottom 10 with my ratings in all three grading systems:

(C-, 4/10, 2 stars) Grey 17 is Missing
(C-, 4/10, 2 stars) Secrets of the Soul
(C-, 4/10, 2 stars) Day of the Dead
(D+, 3/10, 2 stars) Infection
(D+, 3/10, 2 stars) A Spider in the Web
(D+, 3/10, 2 stars) The Paragon of Animals
(D+, 3/10, 2 stars) The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father
(D, 3/10, 1 star) Intersections in Real Time
(D-, 2/10, 1 star) Soul Hunter
(D-, 2/10, 1 star) Believers

And, since they've been mentioned quite a bit, here's my ratings for the two debatable ones that I actually liked:

(B-, 6/10, 3 stars) TKO
(C+, 5/10, 3 stars) Grail

Ivanova's family and religious backgrounds are huge redeeming qualities for me in TKO. I don't care for the fighting itself, and I've mentioned elsewhere on this board before that the no-humans rule of the fight needed further explanation, but otherwise, even the Walker Smith subplot is acceptable to me.

As for Grail, I actually liked the concept behind the "true seeker" and the bad luck of the Jinxo character.

At risk of sounding like a broken record, (because I make this comment every time this subject comes up ) how do you judge something to be "good" or "poor"?

Not liking something is not the same as that something being poor - for example, St Pepper is generally regarded as one of the finest albums of all time but I would gladly take a hammer to every copy so I never have to listen to it again. Totally subjective.

So ... what is a poor B5 episode?

There seems to be a general consensus that TKO and Gray 17 is Missing's A-stories are poor with redeeming B-stories and Infection and Grail are generally poor (JMS himself said he would be happy if every copy of Grail fell off a pier somewhere never to be seen again).

There are also several others that are generally considered "below par", rather than poor - Spider in the Web being one.

Where you have a lot of people making similar comments about a particular episode, I would accept that as being evidence that something is actually, objectively poor. Where some love it and others hate it, that is surely a matter of taste over everything else.

Given JMS' propensity to "play with" his format and try out new stuff just for the sake of it, I find it incredible that out of 110 episodes these discussions always revolve around so few (and always the same ones).

Sounds like a pretty good strike rate to me.

I can't BELIEVE so many of you don't like "Intersections in Real Time"

I guess I can see why some may not like it, but I think you all are FLAT WRONG for thinging its a no-so-good episode. Not-so-good gives one the impression that it has lots of "cringe moments" which some B5 episodes do. Intersections is NOT that type of episode. It was extremely unique, and most impressively, did a FANTASTIC job of showing how those sort of interrogations/conversions go. There were a lot of very truthful and real techniques in that episode.

That is one of the best and strongest episodes of the series imo.

Grail or Grey 17 on the other hand....

Well even Grey 17 had some good parts with Neroon.

I can't BELIEVE so many of you don't like "Intersections in Real Time"

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I admit it's not one of my favorites, however that's not the same as saying that it's not a good episode. I think it is a very good episode because as you said it shows much about interrogation methods. I also think Bruce's acting in it was outstanding. Still I don't particularly care for it, but I wouldn't put it on my list of least favorite episodes.

I agree with most of the episodes the others have mentioned. I also don't like A View from the Gallery, which I don't think anyone has listed. I find it a totally useless episode.

"Secrets of the Soul" , the only episode of B5 I don't like. *cringes*