Chrysalis and Kosh Statement

Also, looking at the Re-edited version of the Gathering Kosh I greets Sinclair with "Entilzah Valen"

Click to expand...

I think he only said "Entilzah" without the Valen.

I never thought of that "once" being with Valen!

I do think the Vorlons pretty much planned everything that happened (or everything they cared about) up until a certain point.

Given their knowledge, age, experience and impled nature to think no-linearly, the Vorlons of the 1260 would understand that B4 came from the future.

In "Voice in the Wilderness" it is said that the Great Machine was around for 500 hundred years, IIRC, so the Vorlons would have connected it to sector 14 to B4.

As Joe pointed out, the Vorlons and even Dukhat new that humans were needed to fight the Shadows. How? Deduction: B4 was of a configuration no one recognised at the time (1260). Given that it came from a different time, which they can deduce from where/how it appeared and the existence of the Great Machine, the only possibility is a "new" space faring race. At the time of the Earth-Minbari war, humans were the latest big space traveling race and the Shadows were starting to move again. Plus, they could have matched the configuration of Earth vessels to B4.

Since Kosh didn't know about Sinclair (he was surprised to see him in the Gathering), forcing Earth to put him in charge of B5 was solely the Minbari's act. Of course Kosh recognised him and put all the pieces together instantly. But it still fit in with their plans to preserve both the past victory and to fight the Shadows again in the "present."

The wheel in the Vorlons' cog was Sheridan and Kosh's empathy for the younger races. Everything was going swimmingly for the Vorlons untl Sheridan convinced Kosh to attack the Shadows openly, creating a domino effect that threw all their plans out the window.

I think he only said "Entilzah" without the Valen.

Click to expand...

Kohs thinks (to reiterate a point made above) "Entil'Zha Valen" - both the title and the name. He is not speaking aloud; in reviewing Kosh's memory, Lyta is "hearing" his internal thoughts. (Notice that we don't hear the tell-tale musical tones of Kosh's "speech" before his translator produces the English version.)

Trivia: JMS wrote the line into an early draft of The Gathering, then took it out as a possible spoiler. (Assuming that the show would start a week after the pilot and that the name Valen would figure prominently in early episodes.) As a result Kosh went from having one line in the pilot to having none, and they saved a few bucks by not having to hire a voice actor for the film. Ardwright Chamberlain was added to the cast in the run up to the start of S1. JMS restored the line to the re-edit in 1998 and had Ardwright record it at that time.

Regards,

Joe

I remember reading in an interview somewhere that Ardwright Chamberlain actually was in the original Gathering.. He did the grunt for the guy who gets shot in the elevator..

Oh, a stunt voice. I think that pays more.

Joe

He is not speaking aloud

Click to expand...

Right, that's what I meant.

I don't know why I forget the name thought-spoken, though. Will pop that disc in tonight.

Fair enough, thought not spoken, but, the point that was being made still stands, which is that Kosh recognized Valen from the first second he saw Sinclair.

...Since Kosh didn't know about Sinclair (he was surprised to see him in the Gathering), ...

Click to expand...

Ok, wait. It's probably a stupid question and maybe I have to rewatch the Gathering tonight, but how do you KNOW Kosh was supprised to see Sinclair? How do you know he wasn't expecting him? I always thought that the Vorlons knew, and that Sinclair was the reason that the Vorlons participated in the B5 project to begin with.

When they discovred Sinclair at the Battle of the Line, no Vorlon was there. This was a purely Minbari matter at the time. To Delenn and the Gray Council, combined with Valen's prophecy that Minbari would unite with ttheir "other half," he was to be watched. So why involve the Vorlons?

To the Vorlons, the Battle of the Line and Minbari prophecy and the seemingly political squabbling of who runs a space station is insignificant. Kosh didn't know because there was no reason for him to know.

The reason he came on the station was to keep an eye on things and get information and generally be a pain in the ass if necessary.

But the Vorlons must have figured out that something significant was going on re the Babylon project as soon as they saw Babylon 4 being built. It would have looked damned familiar to them!

I'm sure they would have been keeping a very close watch on the place, and have no doubt that they knew exactly who was responsible for taking it back in time, all of which happened several years before The Gathering, when Kosh arrived on B5.

I hate time travel. It messes up the tenses

This is all true, Demon, but they still wouldn't know about Sinclair's relevance to all of it. The first Vorlon to actually look at Sinclair's face was Kosh in the Gathering.

The Vorlons knew that a human was going to be important, and that the human race in general would have an important role to play in the coming war, but it is unlikely that Valen would have given away too much about his own identity.

He'd want to keep as much as possible from them, in order to preserve the timeline. Don't forget that among the things that Valen knew about that Kosh didn't is when Kosh was going to kick the bucket - so he probably kept the Vorlons at arm's length and fed them information strictly on a need-to-know basis.

As for my speculation that Kosh was surprised, it seems the most likely reason for him to think "Entil'Zha Valen" when he was confronted with someone who looked just like Jeffery Sinclair. If he knew all along that he was going to meet Valen in his human form, and that Sinclair was the commander of the station, surely something like. "Ah, Commander Sinclair" would be more likely to run through his mind. Also, how likely is it that Kosh knew who Valen was, but on other Vorlon did? (Because if they'd known they probably would not have been threatening to try and execute him.)

Regards,

Joe

But Kosh DID know when he was gonna die, that's why he insisted to Sheridan that if he (Kosh) goes to Z'Ha'Dum that he will die (Sheridan), because Kosh wouldn't be there for him later. (Fine, don't be there for me then. No, you don't understand, but, you will)

Rance Howard (as Kosh when he was being killed) even apologized for being so stubborn and not wanting to die.

The Vorlons knew that a human was going to be important, and that the human race in general would have an important role to play in the coming war, but it is unlikely that Valen would have given away too much about his own identity.

Click to expand...

Right. I would even say that they didn't know if it would be one specific human or the race in general. Looking at it from their perspective right before the Gathering. you have a prophecy from a due you know came from the future saying the Minbari would have to unite with some new race to fight the Shadows which they deduced was the humans, but they didn't know how.

But Kosh DID know when he was gonna die, that's why he insisted to Sheridan that if he (Kosh) goes to Z'Ha'Dum that he will die (Sheridan), because Kosh wouldn't be there for him later. (Fine, don't be there for me then. No, you don't understand, but, you will)

Click to expand...

No, I don't think that's right.
"If you go to Z'Ha Dum, you will die." - Kosh
Kosh is giving Sheridan a friendly warning, and it makes perfect sense. I think this is a similar case to the "you have forgotten something" line discussed in the other thread- it is as simple as it appears. Logically, if you go to an evil realm where no one comes back, you would die.

Kosh only knew about his impending death when he agreed to Sheridan's demand to fight the Shadows directly.

He told Sheridan, that if he (Kosh) had the Vorlons involved in the war directly this early, that he (Kosh) would not be there for Sheridan when Sheridan went to Z'Ha'Dum, didn't he? (at a later conversation than the initial "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum you will die)

I don't think there was anything mystical about that. He knew there were Shadows on the station because he'd seen them in Signs and Portents, so he knew what would happen to him if he personally brought the Vorlons into the war. He tells Sheridan that he (Sheridan) will die if he goes to Z'Ha'Dum in 'In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum' but he doesn't mention the price (that he, Kosh, won't be there) until after Sheridan forces the issue in 'Interludes and Examinations'.

Of course, given that Kosh had already told Sheridan that he'd die on Z'ha'dum, one has to wonder what good Kosh thinks he would have done if he had been there..

Watch "In the Beginning" again. Kosh was at the Battle of the Line. He told Delenn "The truth points to itself". This gave her sufficient information to pick out Sinclair's StarFury and stop the war.

Watch "In the Beginning" again. Kosh was at the Battle of the Line. He told Delenn "The truth points to itself". This gave her sufficient information to pick out Sinclair's StarFury and stop the war.

Click to expand...

But that doesn't necessarily imply foreknowledge. For all we know, 'The truth points to itself' is a common Vorlon aphorism which Kosh just happened to come out with at that moment because he couldn't think of anything reassuring to say.. The rest was all fate, and Delenn's interpretation..

He'd want to keep as much as possible from them, in order to preserve the timeline. Don't forget that among the things that Valen knew about that Kosh didn't is when Kosh was going to kick the bucket - so he probably kept the Vorlons at arm's length and fed them information strictly on a need-to-know basis.

JoeDM, if I am wrong I am giving you permission to berate me. I believe that WWE 1 & 2 were in S3. That's when Sinclair Stayed on B4 and turned into Valen. Didn't Kosh die in S4? If this is the case then Sinclair didn't know when Kosh would die.
Okay I am ready for you. But please be gentle.