Justin

At the risk of upsetting the apple cart, I feel I really have to make a stand here and now and come clean about this;
I really must take issue over the character of Justin.
I mean I just don't buy it. He's the man in between?
Are you joking? This is the guy whos been searching for Sheridan since the beginning of Sesason 2? His equal and opposite?
Just how hard did he look anyway? It's not as if he can really have put much effort into it. Ok, so maybe the Shadows would only have figured out that Sheridan was organising all the younger races into a fighting force after "Shadow Dancing" but the dream images about all this come from much earlier when John Sheridan first meets Talon who is credited only as "narn" in that ep.
Anyway I digress, my bone of contention here is that in no way can I accept that Justin is Sherdian's equal. At the end of the day he's just an old man who's seen better days and like most other people who have been put inside a Shadow vessel he's a bit flaky and twitchy. And what's with all his wittering on about hemlines and fashion?
Oh I don't know, if I'm roundly condemned for this stance then I'll assume it's just me.
If not.......

I really must take issue over the character of Justin.
I mean I just don't buy it. He's the man in between?

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Despite what I think jms has said confirming that Justin is the "man in between," I don't see it as him.

For me, the "man in between" is Lorien. Sheridan does, afterall, find Lorien when he's stuck between tick and tock: that last second of his life that Lorien is able to extend for twenty years. Lorien talks about having been on Z'ha'dum waiting for someone to talk to and that Sheridan is the first one to get that far. Lorien also says that he thinks he met Kosh once, so Kosh planting the dream in Sheridan's mind would know about Lorien in order to tell Sheridan about him in the dream.

I do see Justin as being the other hand opposite of Sheridan in that Sheridan was doing the work of the Vorlons while Justin was doing the work of the Shadows.

I just see the two comments in Sheridan's dream as being seperate, personally.

At the end of the day he's just an old man who's seen better days and like most other people who have been put inside a Shadow vessel he's a bit flaky and twitchy.

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Are you sure about that part? Couldn't Justin have chosen to serve the Shadows? Morden and Anna were given the choice between serving and being stuck in a battlecrab. He chose to serve, she refused.

"That stupid JMS. I don't understand what he means by Justin being 'the man between' so he must be wrong and not understand his own story, while I must be right because I'm so clever."

OK, if that's the position you want to take, more power to you. But I think you all look pretty foolish.

Justin was never in a Shadow ship. He was the person organizing the Shadow allies and minions in support of their strategy - which was very different from the Vorlon strategy. Therefore the Shadow operation and personnel don't resemble the Vorlon side, becasue the Shadows work indirectly, "in the shadows" not to put too fine a point on it. They are careful to choose smooth, pleasant, well-mannered representatives. The Vorlons have no trouble using blunt instruments. (Consider Sebastian, and both Koshes, for that matter.)

JMS makes this point himself: "Look at what Morden actually *does*. He's very polite. He asks people what they want. He saves one of our characters from disgrace and political ruin and rescues a priceless artifact. But we get the sense that he's the bad guy. Now consider Kosh: He denies us our chance at immortality, offs Jha'dur with no more concern than a Mafia Don, never gives anyone a straight answer and virtually tortures one of our regulars and records her thoughts and emotions for some secret purpose of his own. Yet we believe that he is one of the good guys."

Justin is a nice, grandfatherly fellow who makes you tea and generally tells you the truth. He wants to advance the cause of the Human race. And he has a position with the Shadows that is equal to Sheridan's position on the other side. (At least as far as the Vorlons and Shadows are concerned. Sheridan's genius is that he refuses to play the part either side has scripted for him.)

Of course Justin doesn't "resemble" Sheridan. And he is not searching for "Sheridan" as an individual early in S2. He's looking for the eventual leader on the Vorlon side, who at that point has not yet emerged. He isn't literally running around the galaxy "searching", he's watching events around the younger races, especially the Humans and Minbari. Will Delenn become the nexus? Sheridan? Garibaldi? That's what he's "searching" for - the identity of his opposite number so that when the time comes, he'll know what kind of bait to use in his trap. When it finally becomes clear that Sheridan is the one who will lead the new Alliance, Justin has Ann pulled out of the Shadow ship and "reconstituted" so that she can be sent to lure Sheridan to Z'ha'dum.

His lines about hemlines and fashions have to do with the notion that there are "hidden forces" running society, ideas that people entertain even now. I'm sorry you didn't "get" them, but that's your problem, not JMS's.

Regards,

Joe

His lines about hemlines and fashions have to do with the notion that there are "hidden forces" running society, ideas that people entertain even now. I'm sorry you didn't "get" them, but that's your problem, not JMS's.

Regards,

Joe

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Joe, I agree with that, but I also had always taken that to a different level.

Remember when he walks in Sheridan asks Justin "Who are you?" Justin's first reply is "Well, thats not really important is it?" I always took that to mean Justin was saying the QUESTION "Who Are You" which is always asked by the Vorlons, isn't very important, not his name. When Sheridan DEMANDS a second time to Justin "WHO ARE YOU!?" he replies with that nonsense about hemlines and such. On one hand I have always thought it meant what you said. On the other hand, I think he was additionally trying to say that knowing WHO you are (the Vorlons ideology) isn't important, and rattled off those things to give examples of sort of meaningless stuff that goes on all the time and really doesnt matter. Remember he asks Sheidan "who decides the hemlines are going to be short this year" and Sheridan replies "I dont know" in a sort of "I dont know and why should I even care" kinda way. Thereby sort of setting the stage for Sheridan to stop thinking WHO ARE YOU is important, so he could tell his tale.

At least that was another take I always had on that...

I'd have to agree with Recoil and Joe.

I'd also say that if we get too many more wild theories that ignore what actually happened in the show along with the creators explanations Joe is going to have an aneurysm.

Just wait until he sees the "what if there had been a sixth season" thread...

I agree with what you say about the other levels of Justin's "hemlines" speech. It was simlutaneously a rejection, an evasion and a mockery of Sheridan's question - the one the Shadows don't like to ask or have asked. But it was also an answer, because the Shadows really are the faceless, unnoticed powers behind the throne. Clark is the visible face of the Earth dictatorship, but it is the Shadows who are pulling his strings. Bester is one of the leading members of Psi Corps, but it is the Shadows who have helped the Corps move into a position of power. William Edgars had his companies create both the anti-teep virus and its antidote - but the Shadows supplied the "off-world" scientists who really make them both possible. "Same group, different department" He's not far wrong. The Shadows are the eternal "Them" that people always worry about, when they mean the government, or big business, or "the rich". But the Shadows are also the ones who teach us to fear the other "They" that people worry about. Who poisoned the water? "They" did? Who is ruining the schools, the neighborhood, the country? "They" are? Who is to blame for our problems? "Them". That's the version they use to get groups to attack one another.

But I didn't think it was worth getting into these subtlies with someone who didn't even get the most basic surface level of the speech and dismissed one of JMS's more nuanced and interesting orations as a simple rant.

Thereby sort of setting the stage for Sheridan to stop thinking WHO ARE YOU is important, so he could tell his tale.

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And more important, to get to his question - "What do you want?" Because that's how the Shadows win people over, by bribing them, in effect, by offering them what they want: Power, wealth, prestige, fame, victory for their people. And they want to distract people from the question "Who are you?" (And its flip side, "Who am I?") because people wrapped up in matters of identity and being are less likely to be interested in wanting and acquiring. One of JMS's points is that you can't really answer the question "What do you want?" until you've already answered the question, "Who are you?"

If Londo had really known who he was, if he had faced the question of "Who am I" that he always shies away from, he would have given Morden a very different answer when asked "What do you want?" So the Shadows prefer to ask the question of those who aren't too inclined towards introspection. (One suspects that they tried and failed with Santiago, which is why they supported Clark. They would have failed with Sinclair for sure - with his history, they may not even have tried. They went after Sheridan because they too mistook him for a simple jarhead, and because Morden thought he already knew what Sheridan wanted - his wife back.)


Regards,

Joe

But I didn't think it was worth getting into these subtlies with someone who didn't even get the most basic surface level of the speech and dismissed one of JMS's more nuanced and interesting orations as a simple rant.

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Hahaha, good point.

Yea I didnt think of the part about how they tried to give Sheridan what he wanted --- or rather what after "In the Shadow of ZaHaDum" Morden believed Sheridan wanted --- his wife.

And maybe he did want his wife back, but he didn't get her, not the personality anyway, so a lot of Shadows fried that day

Excellent point about Morden's reading of Sheridan.

Justin may not seem like "the man in between," but there's plenty of evidence that he is. Let's recall that we barely see Justin in action, and only when he's trying to charm Sheridan onto his side. Who knows what he's like when his greatest enemy isn't in the room?


Joe, very perceptive points about the other people the Shadows may have approached. What do you think Santiago's answer might have been? And do you think Morden asked him personally?

One of JMS's points is that you can't really answer the question "What do you want?" until you've already answered the question, "Who are you?"

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I would somewhat differ on that one. In episodes of Vorlon-related matters... I think he mentions the impossibility of particularly clear answers.

I think he takes the position that consideration is needed. Awareness of one's viewpoint, bias and limit. But a conclusive answer, being clearly impossible, is hardly necessary.

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On the matter of Justin... I somewhat concur. I would assume some Shadow associates... might be looking for leaders, authorities, people commanding resources given by (or taken from) others.

They might look for hierarchies -- prefer manipulating such structures... since from their viewpoint, a hierarchy whose top they can reach... is easy to manipulate.

They would identify Rangers as a hierarchy (and possibly the Alliance too). They would identify Babylon 5 as a base... and Sheridan as the component of highest expected payoff, one aware of their plans, but possibly within opportunity to influence.

Delenn had already refused to answer. Londo had answered, and proven of notable help for attaining their goals. G'Kar had answered. Garibaldi was already reserved for Psi-Corps.

They would look for a chance with Sheridan. Regardless of which, Lorien would look for a chance with any visitor. Kosh would naturally have great predictive abilities, and in all probability consider this too.

Of course, we could try drawing a complete list of "people looking for Sheridan". But why bother. In this context, one party actively awaiting contact is clear, and another party passively open to contact is also known.

So, is it ever answered (in novels or other canonical media) just where Justin came from? I've read "The Shadow Within" and he wasn't a member of the Icarus crew. Did Clark put him in the place of ambassadorship to these new "allies?" Or did the Shadows pick him out and ask him to come home with them? Did they possibly abduct him from another time like the Vorlons did with Mr. Sebastian? How did this man get to Z'Ha'Dum?

I know that all of this information could be classified under the "Who are you?" heading - and that Justin, himself, says that the information is not important. Maybe JMS meant to leave him as a sort of "Tom Bombadil" character where we never really know who he is; just that he's immensely powerful. I just find Justin such a fascinating character and want to know if there's information out there that I've missed which could shed some more light on his history and personality.

Sleepy_shadow, you say that Garibaldi was already reserved for Psi Corps. But isn't it true that the Shadows handed Garibaldi to Psi Corps to modify him into their servant, but instead Bester "rescued" him and made him his agent? The Shadows were probably expecting to have him under their control, but Bester was opposed to the Shadows. Otherwise I agree with you.

Delenn was probably the one they looked at first; clearly a leader, from a race who had fought them before, closely linked to the Vorlon. But Sheridan had an even closer link to Kosh -- if the Shadows knew that -- and eventually it would become clear that it was Sheridan who was the driving force on Babylon 5.

I somehow doubt if Bester really "rescued" Garibaldi.

I personally think it was a case of someone mentioning "and by the way, if you should accidentally come across Michael Garibaldi, could you bring him to us?"

Of course Bester didn't really rescue Garibaldi, hence the large ironic quotation marks. But Bester is at least human, with human thoughts and emotions. I'd pick him as the lesser of two evils for having total control over me.

Besides, it's easier to kill Bester, when the Asimov isn't a factor.

Justin as the man in between.
In between whom?
Sheridan -> Justin -> Shadows?

Well I thought that would get people's blood boiling but I have to point out that i never implied that I didn't believe that Justin wasn't the man inbetween, on the contrary he quite plainly was. I also must state with firm conviction (but admittedly no real evidence) that it was my impression that He was in a Shadow ship at one point. when J.S. confronts him and Morden about Anna he says that "once you have been inside on of those ships, you're never quite, whole again" As he says these words there's a look in his eyes like he's recalling the experience with no small amount of hesitancy and a little fear.
Finally, your point about the contrasting "management" styles of the two elder races is well made and I have no comeback on that at all Joe.
Just plain wrong there I have to admit.
Cheers,
All the best,
Andy

when J.S. confronts him and Morden about Anna he says that "once you have been inside on of those ships, you're never quite, whole again" As he says these words there's a look in his eyes like he's recalling the experience with no small amount of hesitancy and a little fear.

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I always took that as Justin's reaction to the memory of seeing what happens to the people (many of them) that are put in those ships, and the memory of having order it himself. He may be the Shadow's agent and he may believe in his cause to the point of rationalizing what most people would call war crimes, but Justin is still Human, and he still has feelings and a conscience. He probably thinks about the people he put into those ships the way a general thinks about the men he has sent into combat who never came back. Or the way Sheridan thinks about the teeps he would later use to disable the Earth Alliance Fleet at Mars. I suspect that a certain amount of guilt and horror would accompany those recolletions, however necessary the action seemed at the time.

Regards,

Joe

If Londo had really known who he was, if he had faced the question of "Who am I" that he always shies away from, he would have given Morden a very different answer when asked "What do you want?" So the Shadows prefer to ask the question of those who aren't too inclined towards introspection. (One suspects that they tried and failed with Santiago, which is why they supported Clark. They would have failed with Sinclair for sure - with his history, they may not even have tried. They went after Sheridan because they too mistook him for a simple jarhead, and because Morden thought he already knew what Sheridan wanted - his wife back.)


Regards,

Joe

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Actually, I just assumed that Mr. Morden never approached the humans on Babylon 5 because they already had them (Morden had already helped Clark kill Santiago). Morden was there to "feel out" the major races--Narn, Centuri, and Minbari. But he never approached a representative of Earth, the only other major race at the station.

On a side note, it's interesting to compare the fates of Clark and Londo--the two people in their respective governments that receive help from the Shadows for their own benefit. They have different reasons, but they both wind up in the same place eventually--as the leader of their people. One under the influence of Shadows, one because he rid his world of the Shadows.

Actually, I just assumed that Mr. Morden never approached the humans on Babylon 5 because they already had them (Morden had already helped Clark kill Santiago).

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Morden (or his associates) hadn't already helped Clark kill Santiago at the time he first arrives on B5 from the Rim in "Signs and Portents" (113) Santiago isn't killed until "Chrysalis" (122) At the time he approaches the ambassadors Morden is acting as a scout for the Shadows, who are trying to get a "sense of the room" after being exiled from Z'ha'dum for 1,000 years and uncertain where the various races stand. That's why they even approach Delenn, because they don't yet know that the Vorlons have resumed contact with the Minbari.

But you're probably right vis a vis the Humans. Various Shadow minions have probably already been active there and establishing contact with Clark and other potentially useful individuals - and encouraging Clark's relationship with Psi Corps, the Shadow's first step in neutralizing and then co-opting the Vorlon's most potent weapon, Human telepaths. (Clark's connection with Psi Corps is revealed in a Universe Today headline as early as ep. 101, "Midnight on the Firing Line") So Morden wouldn't have felt the need to approach the Humans on B5 since he knew he would soon be meeting with their much more influential surperiors on Earth itself.

Regards,

Joe