In the book Galen is in the eye where he finally becomes one with his tech. At that moment he lets the whitestar crash into zhadum and blow everything to heck. It was my understanding that the eye was destroyed. If it wasn't then there wasn't anyone running it anyway. So what's going on when delenn, susan, and lyta try to contact sheridan they are confronted by the eye? Did i miss something?
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technomages trilogy and b5 question -SPOILERS-
- Thread starter jnk5y
- Start date
A_M_Swallow
Regular
It appears that The Shadows had a second Eye, which they were using a fortnight later. This is to be expected, the USA has a second Pentagon, which took over strategic control of the US Forces within hours of Bin Laden’s attack.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
the USA has a second Pentagon, which took over strategic control of the US Forces within hours of Bin Laden’s attack.
[/quote]
No, we don't. There are various military installations designated to take over certain operations in the event of the destruction of the Pentagon, but there is no "second Pentagon" and all of the functions wouldn't be concentrated in one spot. Not that any of this mattered on 9/11, anyway. Operations continued to be run from the subterranean operations center as usual. Down there they didn't even hear the impact. The section of the building the plane hit was undergoing rennovations, wasn't fully occupied, and was mostly normal office space, rather than being a critical command and control center. In fact Pentagon operations and command of U.S. forces was not interrupted for a single second by Bin Laden's attack.
Regards,
Joe
the USA has a second Pentagon, which took over strategic control of the US Forces within hours of Bin Laden’s attack.
[/quote]
No, we don't. There are various military installations designated to take over certain operations in the event of the destruction of the Pentagon, but there is no "second Pentagon" and all of the functions wouldn't be concentrated in one spot. Not that any of this mattered on 9/11, anyway. Operations continued to be run from the subterranean operations center as usual. Down there they didn't even hear the impact. The section of the building the plane hit was undergoing rennovations, wasn't fully occupied, and was mostly normal office space, rather than being a critical command and control center. In fact Pentagon operations and command of U.S. forces was not interrupted for a single second by Bin Laden's attack.
Regards,
Joe
A_M_Swallow
Regular
We are getting into matters of semantics.
hypatia
Regular
I think there is another continuity problem between B5 the series and the technomage books. I don't need to use spoiler warnings, do I? Since it says spoilers in the title.
I can't remember which book, 2 probably, B5 sees the ship of the Technomages blows up, IIRC. Yet in the tv episode, the ship is shown quite happily entering hyperspace, isn't it?
A comment on the TM books:
It got more than a bit unrealistic that every important Shadow ship was Anna Sherridan. /forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif
I can't remember which book, 2 probably, B5 sees the ship of the Technomages blows up, IIRC. Yet in the tv episode, the ship is shown quite happily entering hyperspace, isn't it?
A comment on the TM books:
It got more than a bit unrealistic that every important Shadow ship was Anna Sherridan. /forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif
Recoil
Regular
Actually the ship you saw going though was the REAL ship (but people thought it was just another transport). The one that blew up was the decoy (although everyone assumed it really had all of them on it).
But yea, that whole sequence didnt really fit well with the series. Especially Sheridan's speech about magic. He wouldnt have made such a happy speech if he just saw a ship he believed had technomages on it just blew up.
But yea, that whole sequence didnt really fit well with the series. Especially Sheridan's speech about magic. He wouldnt have made such a happy speech if he just saw a ship he believed had technomages on it just blew up.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
We are getting into matters of semantics.
[/quote]
Not really. You said that there was a second Pentagon which took over when the main one was hit. No such thing exists, and no such thing happened. The underground operations center I referred to above (I see I wasn't explicit about this) is the one underneath the Pentagon. That's where operations are always controlled, it's really what people have in mind when they picture "The War Room" at the Pentagon, and that was where things were being handled on September 11th, just as they had been on the 10th.
I'd have to re-read that section of the Technomage book. I think Kosh_N has notes on all of this, and should be able to clarify the point. But I don't believe the Eye was irrevocably destroyed, just that its main function was crippled, probably beyond repair. It was probably still capable of surveilance and other activities, once it had regenerated somewhat following the blast.
Regards,
Joe
We are getting into matters of semantics.
[/quote]
Not really. You said that there was a second Pentagon which took over when the main one was hit. No such thing exists, and no such thing happened. The underground operations center I referred to above (I see I wasn't explicit about this) is the one underneath the Pentagon. That's where operations are always controlled, it's really what people have in mind when they picture "The War Room" at the Pentagon, and that was where things were being handled on September 11th, just as they had been on the 10th.
I'd have to re-read that section of the Technomage book. I think Kosh_N has notes on all of this, and should be able to clarify the point. But I don't believe the Eye was irrevocably destroyed, just that its main function was crippled, probably beyond repair. It was probably still capable of surveilance and other activities, once it had regenerated somewhat following the blast.
Regards,
Joe
KoshN
Super Moderator
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by A_M_Swallow: </font color>
It appears that The Shadows had a second Eye, which they were using a fortnight later.
[/quote]
From memory:
...or the The Eye was not completely destroyed, and the Shadows merely put another being in The Eye to operate it (although probably with diminished capacity, at least initially, before any repairs/regeneration took place), or operated it themselves directly. It's reasonable to assume that they'd have a backup.
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by A_M_Swallow: </font color>
It appears that The Shadows had a second Eye, which they were using a fortnight later.
[/quote]
From memory:
...or the The Eye was not completely destroyed, and the Shadows merely put another being in The Eye to operate it (although probably with diminished capacity, at least initially, before any repairs/regeneration took place), or operated it themselves directly. It's reasonable to assume that they'd have a backup.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
They had more then 1 planet killer after all. Im sure they had more then 1 eye
capt
capt
KoshN
Super Moderator
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by hypatia: </font color>
I can't remember which book, 2 probably, B5 sees the ship of the Technomages blows up, IIRC. Yet in the tv episode, the ship is shown quite happily entering hyperspace, isn't it?
[/quote]
Definitive Answer Below:
There are TWO ships. The first explodes and the second gets away. Sheridan knew some of the mages escaped. He knew Elric escaped. In the TV episode, we just see the second ship get away. However, it is unrealistic that if a ship exploded in normal space, between B5 and the jumpgate that we wouldn't see it in the TV episode. That part of Book 2 needs revised. I wrote to Jeanne Cavelos:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by KoshN: </font color>
Remembering back from when I first read Summoning Light, I thought the Ondavi was slightly ahead and to one side of the Crystal Cabin in hyperspace when the Ondavi exploded. However, upon re-reading (p.317-321) the Ondavi exploded in normal space on the way to the jumpgate, Sheridan saw it (p.320 top), and the Crystal Cabin had to maneuver around the wreckage. This part of the book should be rewritten to fix this contradiction with TGoS.
[/quote]
...and here's what she said:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Jeanne Cavelos: </font color>
But there is no continuity error, and the answer is very clear at the end of Book 2. Anyone who is confused should go back and read that. Sheridan *believes* that the Ondavi is just a decoy and contains only a handful of mages--possibly only one, Ing-Radi, with the rest being illusions. He knows Elric intends to go onto the Ondavi and sacrifice himself along with Ing-Radi. Ing-Radi convinces Sheridan that Elric doesn't need to sacrifice himself, and that he's needed to help lead the mages, most of whom are escaping on the Crystal Cabin. So Sheridan arranges to save Elric and get him on board the Crystal Cabin. Sheridan sees the Ondavi explode, but believes, as I said, that there were only a couple mages on board, and that most have escaped safely on the Crystal Cabin, to continue on their journey beyond the rim. He *never* believed that all the mages blew up, because Ing-Radi clued him into their plans. Only Morden and the Shadows were deceived. Hence, no inaccuracy.
[/quote]
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by KoshN: </font color>
> But there is no continuity error, and the answer is
> very clear at the end of Book 2.
Reference: Summoning Light, page 316 bottom to page 321.
> Anyone who is confused should
> go back and read that. Sheridan *believes* that the Ondavi is
> just a decoy and contains only a handful of mages--possibly only
> one, Ing-Radi, with the rest being illusions. He knows Elric
> intends to go onto the Ondavi and sacrifice himself along with
> Ing-Radi. Ing-Radi convinces Sheridan that Elric doesn't need to
> sacrifice himself, and that he's needed to help lead the mages,
> most of whom are escaping on the Crystal Cabin. So Sheridan
> arranges to save Elric and get him on board the Crystal Cabin.
Right. I got that. There is no continuity error in Sheridan seeing technomages further down the road, e.g. in A Call to Arms. Also, we'll never know exactly what Ing-Radi told Sheridan. We know only what Elric has surmised that she told Sheridan.
> Sheridan sees the Ondavi explode,
Only in the book. Summoning Light, page 320, top.
> but believes, as I said, that
> there were only a couple mages on board, and that most have
> escaped safely on the Crystal Cabin, to continue on their journey
> beyond the rim. He *never* believed that all the mages blew up,
> because Ing-Radi clued him into their plans.
True.
> Only Morden and the
> Shadows were deceived.
> Hence, no inaccuracy.
Not quite true.
In The Geometry of Shadows, Sheridan is in the EA Lounge ("Earhart's") with Ivanova, Franklin and Garibaldi. Sheridan's link beeps, and we hear Corwin say "You said you wanted to know when the technomages were leaving, Captain. They're boarding now."[1] Sheridan says "Thank you. I'll be right there." Then he tells Garibaldi, Ivanova, and Franklin "I have to head up to control. See you in a bit, huh." Next we cut to Londo and Elric, and in the background "Private liner Crystal Cabin is now in final check prior to departure. Passengers are to proceed to the docking area..." After the scene with Londo and Elric, we cut to C&C, and hear Corwin say the following to Sheridan "The ship carrying the technomages is requesting permission to leave. What do I tell them?"[2] Sheridan replies "Tell them, permission granted."[3] Next, we see the jumpgate activating and one ship leaving uneventfully[4]. There are no explosions and no maneuvering around debris.
[1] From the episode, Chrysalis, we know the links are not secure communications. Garibaldi did not trust the link to tell Sinclair about what he'd discovered about the plot to assassinate President Santiago. Morden's associates (informants) may have overheard Corwin's message to Sheridan here. Also, to which ship is Corwin referring? Is Corwin in on it as well?
[2] Summoning Light, page 318, lines 9-12. "That would be the Ondavi." So Corwin is referring to the Ondavi here.
[3] Summoning Light, page 318, line 17. "Tell them, permission granted."
[4] Presumably the Ondavi. But here's where you pulled the old switcheroo on us. You want us to believe that the ship making the successful jump is the Crystal Cabin.
Now, here comes the problem. Summoning Light page 318, bottom third to page 319 top third. Both the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin are leaving Babylon 5 at nearly the same time. Ondavi is ahead, by about a minute, and heading for the jumpgate. So, both the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin are in normal space between B5 and the jumpgate when the Ondavi explodes (Summoning Light, page 320 top) which we never see in The Geometry of Shadows).
1. In the Geometry of Shadows, we never see Sheridan see the explosion. (The same goes for Londo and Vir.)
2. If Sheridan had seen a ship explode, he would not have been as calm and
contented as we see him at the end of The Geometry of Shadows.
3. Surely somebody in C&C would have reacted to an explosion.
4. If the ship, that we see make the successful passage through the jumpgate in the Geometry of Shadows, was the Crystal Cabin, we never see it maneuvering around the debris of the Ondavi.
*That* was the inaccuracy that I'm talking about. Now, *if* both the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin had made successful jumps to hyperspace, and the Ondavi had exploded in hyperspace after the jumpgate had closed, and they
were far enough away from B5 for the local sensors not to notice it, then Sheridan would never have seen it and it would have made more sense with regard to what we saw in The Geometry of Shadows.
Sheridan seeing a ship explode (the first paragraph on page 320 of Summoning Light) just doesn't go with what we saw in The Geometry of Shadows. He reacts in the book, but not in the episode. Do you see what I mean? If the
first ship, the Ondavi, had exploded, and the second ship, the Crystal Cabin, had made the successful jump, we'd have seen more of a commotion in C&C.
[/quote]
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Jeanne Cavelos: </font color>
I assumed a passage of time between the explosion of the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin's jump through the gate. In the book, all you know is that, after the explosion, the Crystal Cabin is maneuvering around the wreckage, and then we leave Elric's POV. I assume that if a ship explodes, they're going to stop everything for at least a few minutes before resuming normal traffic and jumps. So the Crystal Cabin will have to wait before jumping, giving Sheridan time to react to the explosion, along with the rest of the C&C crew, Londo, Vir, etc. Then the Crystal Cabin makes the jump and Sheridan goes into that speech at the end of TGOS. Clearly, this is a passage of time that isn't shown in the episode. Similarly, I inserted many things in the book that weren't in the episode. If people aren't willing to allow that things happened on B5 that weren't shown in the episode, then they obviously aren't going to like my book, but I thought that using that technique made the book a lot more interesting than it would otherwise be (and also more true to the techno-mages and their deceptive natures). Since I never show Sheridan's speech in the book, it's never established how much
time passes between the explosion and the Crystal Cabin's departure. Each reader can make it what he wants.
[/quote]
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Jeanne Cavelos: </font color>
I suppose that in the book I could have had some announcement over the loudspeaker on the Crystal Cabin that their jump would be delayed by an hour . . . I guess I just figured people could insert that on their own, and I didn't want to break the mood.
[/quote]
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by hypatia: </font color>
I can't remember which book, 2 probably, B5 sees the ship of the Technomages blows up, IIRC. Yet in the tv episode, the ship is shown quite happily entering hyperspace, isn't it?
[/quote]
Definitive Answer Below:
There are TWO ships. The first explodes and the second gets away. Sheridan knew some of the mages escaped. He knew Elric escaped. In the TV episode, we just see the second ship get away. However, it is unrealistic that if a ship exploded in normal space, between B5 and the jumpgate that we wouldn't see it in the TV episode. That part of Book 2 needs revised. I wrote to Jeanne Cavelos:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by KoshN: </font color>
Remembering back from when I first read Summoning Light, I thought the Ondavi was slightly ahead and to one side of the Crystal Cabin in hyperspace when the Ondavi exploded. However, upon re-reading (p.317-321) the Ondavi exploded in normal space on the way to the jumpgate, Sheridan saw it (p.320 top), and the Crystal Cabin had to maneuver around the wreckage. This part of the book should be rewritten to fix this contradiction with TGoS.
[/quote]
...and here's what she said:
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Jeanne Cavelos: </font color>
But there is no continuity error, and the answer is very clear at the end of Book 2. Anyone who is confused should go back and read that. Sheridan *believes* that the Ondavi is just a decoy and contains only a handful of mages--possibly only one, Ing-Radi, with the rest being illusions. He knows Elric intends to go onto the Ondavi and sacrifice himself along with Ing-Radi. Ing-Radi convinces Sheridan that Elric doesn't need to sacrifice himself, and that he's needed to help lead the mages, most of whom are escaping on the Crystal Cabin. So Sheridan arranges to save Elric and get him on board the Crystal Cabin. Sheridan sees the Ondavi explode, but believes, as I said, that there were only a couple mages on board, and that most have escaped safely on the Crystal Cabin, to continue on their journey beyond the rim. He *never* believed that all the mages blew up, because Ing-Radi clued him into their plans. Only Morden and the Shadows were deceived. Hence, no inaccuracy.
[/quote]
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by KoshN: </font color>
> But there is no continuity error, and the answer is
> very clear at the end of Book 2.
Reference: Summoning Light, page 316 bottom to page 321.
> Anyone who is confused should
> go back and read that. Sheridan *believes* that the Ondavi is
> just a decoy and contains only a handful of mages--possibly only
> one, Ing-Radi, with the rest being illusions. He knows Elric
> intends to go onto the Ondavi and sacrifice himself along with
> Ing-Radi. Ing-Radi convinces Sheridan that Elric doesn't need to
> sacrifice himself, and that he's needed to help lead the mages,
> most of whom are escaping on the Crystal Cabin. So Sheridan
> arranges to save Elric and get him on board the Crystal Cabin.
Right. I got that. There is no continuity error in Sheridan seeing technomages further down the road, e.g. in A Call to Arms. Also, we'll never know exactly what Ing-Radi told Sheridan. We know only what Elric has surmised that she told Sheridan.
> Sheridan sees the Ondavi explode,
Only in the book. Summoning Light, page 320, top.
> but believes, as I said, that
> there were only a couple mages on board, and that most have
> escaped safely on the Crystal Cabin, to continue on their journey
> beyond the rim. He *never* believed that all the mages blew up,
> because Ing-Radi clued him into their plans.
True.
> Only Morden and the
> Shadows were deceived.
> Hence, no inaccuracy.
Not quite true.
In The Geometry of Shadows, Sheridan is in the EA Lounge ("Earhart's") with Ivanova, Franklin and Garibaldi. Sheridan's link beeps, and we hear Corwin say "You said you wanted to know when the technomages were leaving, Captain. They're boarding now."[1] Sheridan says "Thank you. I'll be right there." Then he tells Garibaldi, Ivanova, and Franklin "I have to head up to control. See you in a bit, huh." Next we cut to Londo and Elric, and in the background "Private liner Crystal Cabin is now in final check prior to departure. Passengers are to proceed to the docking area..." After the scene with Londo and Elric, we cut to C&C, and hear Corwin say the following to Sheridan "The ship carrying the technomages is requesting permission to leave. What do I tell them?"[2] Sheridan replies "Tell them, permission granted."[3] Next, we see the jumpgate activating and one ship leaving uneventfully[4]. There are no explosions and no maneuvering around debris.
[1] From the episode, Chrysalis, we know the links are not secure communications. Garibaldi did not trust the link to tell Sinclair about what he'd discovered about the plot to assassinate President Santiago. Morden's associates (informants) may have overheard Corwin's message to Sheridan here. Also, to which ship is Corwin referring? Is Corwin in on it as well?
[2] Summoning Light, page 318, lines 9-12. "That would be the Ondavi." So Corwin is referring to the Ondavi here.
[3] Summoning Light, page 318, line 17. "Tell them, permission granted."
[4] Presumably the Ondavi. But here's where you pulled the old switcheroo on us. You want us to believe that the ship making the successful jump is the Crystal Cabin.
Now, here comes the problem. Summoning Light page 318, bottom third to page 319 top third. Both the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin are leaving Babylon 5 at nearly the same time. Ondavi is ahead, by about a minute, and heading for the jumpgate. So, both the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin are in normal space between B5 and the jumpgate when the Ondavi explodes (Summoning Light, page 320 top) which we never see in The Geometry of Shadows).
1. In the Geometry of Shadows, we never see Sheridan see the explosion. (The same goes for Londo and Vir.)
2. If Sheridan had seen a ship explode, he would not have been as calm and
contented as we see him at the end of The Geometry of Shadows.
3. Surely somebody in C&C would have reacted to an explosion.
4. If the ship, that we see make the successful passage through the jumpgate in the Geometry of Shadows, was the Crystal Cabin, we never see it maneuvering around the debris of the Ondavi.
*That* was the inaccuracy that I'm talking about. Now, *if* both the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin had made successful jumps to hyperspace, and the Ondavi had exploded in hyperspace after the jumpgate had closed, and they
were far enough away from B5 for the local sensors not to notice it, then Sheridan would never have seen it and it would have made more sense with regard to what we saw in The Geometry of Shadows.
Sheridan seeing a ship explode (the first paragraph on page 320 of Summoning Light) just doesn't go with what we saw in The Geometry of Shadows. He reacts in the book, but not in the episode. Do you see what I mean? If the
first ship, the Ondavi, had exploded, and the second ship, the Crystal Cabin, had made the successful jump, we'd have seen more of a commotion in C&C.
[/quote]
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Jeanne Cavelos: </font color>
I assumed a passage of time between the explosion of the Ondavi and the Crystal Cabin's jump through the gate. In the book, all you know is that, after the explosion, the Crystal Cabin is maneuvering around the wreckage, and then we leave Elric's POV. I assume that if a ship explodes, they're going to stop everything for at least a few minutes before resuming normal traffic and jumps. So the Crystal Cabin will have to wait before jumping, giving Sheridan time to react to the explosion, along with the rest of the C&C crew, Londo, Vir, etc. Then the Crystal Cabin makes the jump and Sheridan goes into that speech at the end of TGOS. Clearly, this is a passage of time that isn't shown in the episode. Similarly, I inserted many things in the book that weren't in the episode. If people aren't willing to allow that things happened on B5 that weren't shown in the episode, then they obviously aren't going to like my book, but I thought that using that technique made the book a lot more interesting than it would otherwise be (and also more true to the techno-mages and their deceptive natures). Since I never show Sheridan's speech in the book, it's never established how much
time passes between the explosion and the Crystal Cabin's departure. Each reader can make it what he wants.
[/quote]
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Jeanne Cavelos: </font color>
I suppose that in the book I could have had some announcement over the loudspeaker on the Crystal Cabin that their jump would be delayed by an hour . . . I guess I just figured people could insert that on their own, and I didn't want to break the mood.
[/quote]
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Re: KoshN
Excellent breakdown and analysis, Kosh. I agree it would've been a little easier to believe had the Ondavi exploded in hyperspace rather than on B5's front doorstep.
Near the end of the book, I'm pretty sure The Eye is referred to as dead, and yet the Whitestar encounters "The Eye" a week later in "Hour of the Wolf". The general consensus is that the Shadows were able to rig something up as a stopgap measure for their own security - possibly controlled by a Shadow itself (hence the image and sounds of a Shadow seen in space over Z'ha'Dum). However, the Eye was probably nowhere near as efficient or effective as it had been prior to the death of Wierden. It is stated in the book that The Eye had waited a thousand years for a new inhabitant with an exceedingly orderly mind. Galen was that replacement, so filling that position after his escape would not have been easy. I don't even know if a Shadow - a being of Chaos - could run the machine if it wanted to, but that's another bit of speculative discussion. In any case, I would guess that the effective "reach" of the Eye was probably reduced from controlling and monitoring all Shadow activity in the galaxy to simply protecting Z'Ha'Dum and its airspace for that period of transition.
It still leaves me to wonder who finally replaced Wierden.
Could it have been Bunny?....
Storywise, I would still prefer to believe that Sheridan caught the Shadows with their pants down, as it originally appeared - whether logical or not.
I know I was surprised when I first heard those nukes were missing and to think that Sheridan's plan was foolish and destined to fail if not for the fortuitous intervention of Galen, well, that seems like an attempt to tarnish one of B5's greatest episodes.
The same goes for Galen planting the Shadows' strategy into Sheridan's head. Let's not make Johnny look TOO dumb, eh?
Excellent breakdown and analysis, Kosh. I agree it would've been a little easier to believe had the Ondavi exploded in hyperspace rather than on B5's front doorstep.
Near the end of the book, I'm pretty sure The Eye is referred to as dead, and yet the Whitestar encounters "The Eye" a week later in "Hour of the Wolf". The general consensus is that the Shadows were able to rig something up as a stopgap measure for their own security - possibly controlled by a Shadow itself (hence the image and sounds of a Shadow seen in space over Z'ha'Dum). However, the Eye was probably nowhere near as efficient or effective as it had been prior to the death of Wierden. It is stated in the book that The Eye had waited a thousand years for a new inhabitant with an exceedingly orderly mind. Galen was that replacement, so filling that position after his escape would not have been easy. I don't even know if a Shadow - a being of Chaos - could run the machine if it wanted to, but that's another bit of speculative discussion. In any case, I would guess that the effective "reach" of the Eye was probably reduced from controlling and monitoring all Shadow activity in the galaxy to simply protecting Z'Ha'Dum and its airspace for that period of transition.
It still leaves me to wonder who finally replaced Wierden.
Could it have been Bunny?....
Storywise, I would still prefer to believe that Sheridan caught the Shadows with their pants down, as it originally appeared - whether logical or not.
I know I was surprised when I first heard those nukes were missing and to think that Sheridan's plan was foolish and destined to fail if not for the fortuitous intervention of Galen, well, that seems like an attempt to tarnish one of B5's greatest episodes.
The same goes for Galen planting the Shadows' strategy into Sheridan's head. Let's not make Johnny look TOO dumb, eh?
StarForBram
Regular
Re: KoshN
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The same goes for Galen planting the Shadows' strategy into Sheridan's head. Let's not make Johnny look TOO dumb, eh?
[/quote]
Funny you should say that. A few months ago I convinced a friend of mine to sit down and watch the whole series of B5. He had never seen it before and wanted to know what I thought was so great about this show. Anyway, to make a long story short, we're about 5 episodes from the end of S5. He just loves the show and I have succeeded in creating a new fan. But one of his comments about the show as we watched it was that he thought Sheridan was just too "smart". He never made any bad decisions and he knew the answer to everything. Now that we're into S5 he's seen some "bad" Sheridan decisions. But I thought the touch of Galen helping Sheridan behind the scenes at Z'Ha'Dum was a good idea. It made Sheridan's character more credible to me.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The same goes for Galen planting the Shadows' strategy into Sheridan's head. Let's not make Johnny look TOO dumb, eh?
[/quote]
Funny you should say that. A few months ago I convinced a friend of mine to sit down and watch the whole series of B5. He had never seen it before and wanted to know what I thought was so great about this show. Anyway, to make a long story short, we're about 5 episodes from the end of S5. He just loves the show and I have succeeded in creating a new fan. But one of his comments about the show as we watched it was that he thought Sheridan was just too "smart". He never made any bad decisions and he knew the answer to everything. Now that we're into S5 he's seen some "bad" Sheridan decisions. But I thought the touch of Galen helping Sheridan behind the scenes at Z'Ha'Dum was a good idea. It made Sheridan's character more credible to me.
Re: KoshN
It might have been a Shadow, like you said ... according to the TM books (which we are referencing here if we're talking about the Eye being destroyed anyway), the Shadows wanted to spread Chaos but were quite orderly themselves - which we do see in the series somewhat. They wanted their "followers" to be the perfect little soldiers - not going off and doing their own chaotic thing. Much of the Shadows ways are "control" and having others do what the Shadows want - which is closer to order than chaos. It seems they wanted to spread disorder throughout those who were not with them, but wanted a strict ruling thumb ... er, mandible ... of those races under their control.
I can allow Galen having helped Sheriden bring the White Star into city since I can't see how the White Star otherwise made it down; ever younger race seems to have planetary defense systems so why wouldn't Z'ha'dum? I can't believe even when they were hiding they wouldn't have had some secret defenses up ... and by the time of the ends of season 3, they were open so even more so should the defenses be up and active. And in the end it was still Sheriden who went on a suicide mission (to save Centauri Prime really - though it didn't work) with two nukes to stab at the heart of the Darkness. My only complaint was I believed Sheriden managed to take out that that Shadow that was sneaking up on him in Justin's room but the books say otherwise.
It might have been a Shadow, like you said ... according to the TM books (which we are referencing here if we're talking about the Eye being destroyed anyway), the Shadows wanted to spread Chaos but were quite orderly themselves - which we do see in the series somewhat. They wanted their "followers" to be the perfect little soldiers - not going off and doing their own chaotic thing. Much of the Shadows ways are "control" and having others do what the Shadows want - which is closer to order than chaos. It seems they wanted to spread disorder throughout those who were not with them, but wanted a strict ruling thumb ... er, mandible ... of those races under their control.
I can allow Galen having helped Sheriden bring the White Star into city since I can't see how the White Star otherwise made it down; ever younger race seems to have planetary defense systems so why wouldn't Z'ha'dum? I can't believe even when they were hiding they wouldn't have had some secret defenses up ... and by the time of the ends of season 3, they were open so even more so should the defenses be up and active. And in the end it was still Sheriden who went on a suicide mission (to save Centauri Prime really - though it didn't work) with two nukes to stab at the heart of the Darkness. My only complaint was I believed Sheriden managed to take out that that Shadow that was sneaking up on him in Justin's room but the books say otherwise.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Re: KoshN
Indeed.
Z'ha'dum must have possessed weapons. Given that this was the place where the Shadows gathered, the place where the Eye resided, it must have possessed quite capable weapons, aside from the Eye itself.
Such weapons would have easily destroyed an incoming White Star. By all expectations, they should have been capable of destroying a thousand Vorlon cruisers.
To explain one lonely White Star reaching surface requires either luck... or something obstructing defense. Sheridan could hardly obstruct Shadow command and control systems, although he could greatly annoy them by refusing to yield.
I originally thought it was Kosh. After all, the Shadows suspected that harm would come, should anything Vorlon touch the surface. To explain the events with an internal struggle, with Galen crashing the Eye... is equally plausible. More than blind luck.
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Was the Eye rebuilt? If not, what replaced it? I cannot be sure. We only hear Lyta telling about the Eye, probably because the Vorlons had told her that Z'ha'dum is protected by the Eye.
Unfortunately they either forgot to tell her how to defend... or the thing which attacked was not really the Eye. I doubt if they could tell her how to defend against telepathic attack by a Shadow.
Given that whatever overtook both Lyta and everyone else onboard exhibited lack of attention, failing to learn about the ship's preprogrammed return jump, I would deem it more likely that this was an individual being, rather than many beings.
Indeed.
Z'ha'dum must have possessed weapons. Given that this was the place where the Shadows gathered, the place where the Eye resided, it must have possessed quite capable weapons, aside from the Eye itself.
Such weapons would have easily destroyed an incoming White Star. By all expectations, they should have been capable of destroying a thousand Vorlon cruisers.
To explain one lonely White Star reaching surface requires either luck... or something obstructing defense. Sheridan could hardly obstruct Shadow command and control systems, although he could greatly annoy them by refusing to yield.
I originally thought it was Kosh. After all, the Shadows suspected that harm would come, should anything Vorlon touch the surface. To explain the events with an internal struggle, with Galen crashing the Eye... is equally plausible. More than blind luck.
----------
Was the Eye rebuilt? If not, what replaced it? I cannot be sure. We only hear Lyta telling about the Eye, probably because the Vorlons had told her that Z'ha'dum is protected by the Eye.
Unfortunately they either forgot to tell her how to defend... or the thing which attacked was not really the Eye. I doubt if they could tell her how to defend against telepathic attack by a Shadow.
Given that whatever overtook both Lyta and everyone else onboard exhibited lack of attention, failing to learn about the ship's preprogrammed return jump, I would deem it more likely that this was an individual being, rather than many beings.
