The fall of night *spoilers* beware

I saw the fall of night again and noticed something that i never saw the first couple of times i saw the show. Everytime they show Kosh his face looks like a different race... first minbari then drazi then narn. I thought it was nice that after so many viewings, episodes can still surprise me.

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It's been a while now since I saw that episode but if I remember correctly, then it depended on whose point of view Kosh was shown at the time - i.e. when Delenn was shown looking at him, then he looked like a Minbari, when he was shown through G'Kar's eyes then he looked like a Narn etc.

A good hint at the Vorlons having been everywhere, influencing all of those species on different planets, making their way into their belief systems.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge

Ah yes, and have you noticed how in the other race cultures, the Vorlon is always a singular entity. Drodhalla, G'Lan, Valeria. Yet to humanity the Vorlon is one of many, simply an angel. Unless the implication is that Kosh is either the archangel Michael or the angel Gabriel, but I don't think jms wanted to overstep the mark there.

Personally I think the vorlons exploited our belief in angels anyway and adopted their appearance.

Remember though, the characters don't see the truth, or what they want to see, they see what Kosh wanted them to see which is why Kosh was so whacked out afterwards. The vorlons second line of defence: The Perception Suit as jms called it.

I think it's important Kosh wanted Londo to see nothing, I think there are two possibilities why this is:

1) Kosh had rejected Londo because of knowing his association with the Shadows

2) Kosh wanted Londo to realise just how black and empty his soul was and was trying to get him to turn around by addressing it in a visual way.

I prefer the second notion but am interested in further speculation.

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galahad:
Ah yes, and have you noticed how in the other race cultures, the Vorlon is always a singular entity. Drodhalla,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, .... I can't help it. "Droshalla"




<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I think it's important Kosh wanted Londo to see nothing, I think there are two possibilities why this is:

1) Kosh had rejected Londo because of knowing his association with the Shadows
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That could be it, but I prefer #3 below.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
2) Kosh wanted Londo to realise just how black and empty his soul was and was trying to get him to turn around by addressing it in a visual way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this would just push Londo away, and would not facilitate getting him back. Kosh considers Londo to be gone. G'Kar he sees a little hope for, as we'll see in Dust to Dust.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I prefer the second notion but am interested in further speculation.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

3. Kosh could not decide, on the spur of the moment, which of the 50 Centauri gods to impersonate, and/or none of them was dignified enough for Kosh to be seen as.




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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

If Londo saw nothing, does that mean that the Vorlons had never tried to influence the Centauri? The others saw the vision that had been implanted in their minds but Londo saw nothing because there was nothing there to see. Kosh must have known it was too late to try and influence Londo because the Shadows were already controlling him.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Kosh appeared to each race as what the Vorlons wanted them to see them as. The Vorlons spent hundreds if not thousands of years manipulating the younger races into seeing them as angels or gods, so when they would show themselves like Kosh did, they would appear to each race as their own version of an angel or god.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galahad:
Personally I think the vorlons exploited our belief in angels anyway and adopted their appearance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not to nit-pick, but I think the implication is that the Vorlons didn't just take advantage of our belief in angels, but that they created our popular belief of an angel being a flying, white-luminscent figure.



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-jmb

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Kosh could not decide, on the spur of the moment, which of the 50 Centauri gods to impersonate, and/or none of them was dignified enough for Kosh to be seen as.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? It would have been natural to choose Li, the goddess of passion, only with a number of tentacles typical for a Vorlon. Londo would have been struck blind by the sight and considered it... umm... a deeply spiritual revelation.

On a more serious note, it would have been logical for the Vorlons to support beliefs about heavenly beings of light.

It would be hard for a light-emitting, flying, squid-like creature who communicates in musical tones to impersonate, say...

...a shimmering black spidery creature who likes to live underground and talks by chirping like a broken modem.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 11, 2001).]

The Vorlons have modified the Centauri. It is just that the Centauri have chosen the wrong path.

Andrew Swallow

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Andrew Swallow

An interesting note on what the Vorlon's have done to the Centauri appears I believe in the Mage trilogy when

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Kosh is thinking to himself about the progress of the Shadows when he laments the wasted promise of the Xon. Apparently the Vorlon choose to do their work the other inhabitants of Centauri Prime. The Centauri killing the Xon destroyed their plans. I don't think what Kosh said rules out the Vorlons tampering with the Centauri but probably means that they at least did not have time to do as much work. </font></td></tr></table>



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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall

One thing that puzzles me: if the Vorlons didn't manipulate the Centauri, then wouldn't Londo have seen Kosh for what he truly looked like, instead of nothing at all? That he saw *nothing* seems to imply that Kosh was doing *something* to his perception, even it was simply that he was too lazy to figure out what to show him and just wanted to hide his true appearance.

Oh, and
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Not to nit-pick, but I think the implication is that the Vorlons didn't just take advantage of our belief in angels, but that they created our popular belief of an angel being a flying, white-luminscent figure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, JMS has stated himself that it can be interpreted either way, and in fact it makes more sense that the Vorlons simply came in and used the currently existing belief in angels:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Yes, those are pretty much the two interpretations... that the Vorlons *created* the myth of angels, or that they came in and *exploited* it for their own purposes. In my view, the latter seems more logical in some ways. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I refer thee to the Lurker's Guide (or at least, one of the mirrors
http://babylon5.cybersite.com.au/lurk/guide/044.html .

Cheers,
-mcn

Well in the centauri trilogy(legions of fire) Londo did see something, he saw light..

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Kosh is thinking to himself about the progress of the Shadows when he laments the wasted promise of the Xon. Apparently the Vorlon choose to do their work the other inhabitants of Centauri Prime. The Centauri killing the Xon destroyed their plans. I don't think what Kosh said rules out the Vorlons tampering with the Centauri but probably means that they at least did not have time to do as much work.
</font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Or, the Vorlon had been working with BOTH races but were unable to halt the war.
Which could have been egged on by the Shadows.
Or not. They might not have Needed any encouragement at that point in their history.

Kosh may be mourning the fact that the Xon lost because they had more Potential than the Centaui.
Or because, having Comitted Genocide and having No Regrets, is a strong indicator that the Centauri will never quite make it.
After all, Kosh did say the Centauri were a Dying Race.
The prejudice that led to wiping out the Xon may be the crime that doomed them.
</font></td></tr></table>



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
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Confessions of Londo in his diary
(From the Centauri Trilogy)

He just said he saw nothing, but actually saw some light, maybe even a being of light...

And Londo probably didn't want to look too closely, or admit what he saw, and certainly not the implications of it (that Sheridan was on the side of Light -since it in that form came to rescue him from a Centauri Bomb-, and he and his people were on the other side...)

Vorlon manipulations? Certainly! They did work on everyone, it's just that with some races it didn't take as good as with others.

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

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