in the beginning there was In The Beginning

this is a question, for the guys who have introduced others to the glory that is B5. i have finally and after many attempts convinced my mate to try B5 on for size i got him hooked on BSG and told him that ultimately BSG is just B5 on a ship not a space station. now the question is should i show him The Gathering or In The Beginning First? The Gathering is the start of the 5 year plot but In The Beginning is the start of the narrative with a few tasty little teasers of arguably the busiest night in the plot, sheridan jumping forward, londo and g'kar killing each other and something else i seem to be forgetting. any thoughts?

Well, I'm an arc purist, so I always say go with "The Gathering" if you have the good version, and if you don't then just start with "Midnight on the Firing Line," which I think is an underrated ep.

i agree midnight on the firing line is fantastic.

Although the Gathering is not the strongest episode, you miss alot if you skip it. If you can swing it, I would suggest both the Gathering and Midnight on the Firing Line (It's only about 2 hrs. and 15 minutes for both of them).

I'm with Koshfan, In the Beginning was a great "catch up" for those new viewers coming into S5 on TNT (And a great bonus refresher for someone who has already seen the series one), but, it does spoil alot, IMHO.

yeah i know but what I'm really looking for is shock and awe, but it goes against my own beliefs because i am a B5 purist.

I think the "spoiler" aspects of ItB are grossly exaggerated. Most people who come to B5 aren't totally unfamiliar with it. They've seen an episode here or there (or part of one), pics in magazines, people at cons. They've seen Delenn in her post-S1 make up, they know bits and pieces about the story, but probably not the context. And by the time they get to the "spoiled" episodes in S4, they'll have forgotten most of the details from ItB.

It does "give away" the mystery of the end of the Minbari War and the Minbari's belief that Humans are incarnated Minbari but it does not, as is sometimes claimed, give away all of Sinclair's secrets. I've argued before that pursuing the clues to what happened on the Line with Sinclair, learning the truth as he does, is one kine of experience. Watching him try to uravel the mystery when you already know the answer is another. Neither is better or more "valid" than the other. Murder She Wrote was a classic whodunnit where the viewer tried to solve the mystery with Angela Lansbury. Columbo was a "how's-he-gonna-catch-'em" where we saw the murder and then watched Peter Falk unravel the mystery and catch the killer. Both shows were enjoyable, and both approaches work.

I would never recommend The Gathering as introduction to the series. Even the recut is too rough, the makeups are bad, the props cheap looking and too much time is spent with characters we will never see again. ItB (which JMS designed as a introduction to the series for new fans) not only introduces all of the main characters, its flashback structure also gives us a glimpse of the epic sweep of the over-all story - something no other TV movie or single episode can do.

If you decide against ItB on spoiler grounds, you could just try a really good S1 episode that gives the flavor of the show. "Midnight" is virtually a second pilot, a reintroduction to the series and the new and altered characters as they will appear in the rest of the season. I also like "Signs and Portents" as an intro. It skips ahead a bit in the story, but not too far, and like ItB it hints at the larger themes to come. And the ending will intrigue any new viewer. "The Parliament of Dreams" is a good overview of the characters, and a strong Sinclair episode. "Deathwalker" is a solid SF plot that establishes the role of the station and highlights the Vorlons in a nice, creepy way. If you start with any of these I think you'll get your friend interested, but what I always tell any B5 newbie is that they have to promise me that they'll watch at least four episodes in sequence, or else they'll never get a sense of the show. After your intro episode go back to "Midnight" and run them in order.

I'd hold off on The Gathering until about halfway through the season. By that time your friend will be familiar with the series that is, and will be able to see TG for what it is, the first, rough draft of B5. It is much more tolerable in retrospect than as an introduction.

Hope this helps,

Joe

I've just converted a friend at work.

I lent her 'The Gathering' over the summer holidays, then the box sets one at a time. I told her to stick with season one as it could seem slow at times.

She didn't need much encouragement and last time I got an update, she was only two episodes off 'Sleeping in light'.

I have now lent her the movies, telling her where they are set in the grand scheme of things. I could have lent her ItB and TS after the fourth season, but I didn't want to spoil the flow of the episodes.

The upside of this is that there is another person who I can talk B5 with. The downside is that going through it so fast, not all the names have stuck and she was still calling G'Kar 'That lizard guy' and Londo 'The One with the Funny Hair'.

It's alright, Elenopa; my convert refused to let go of "Hazmat Boy" and "Moron," referring to Kosh and Morden.

'HazmatBoyFan' just doesn't have the same ring to it, does it KF?

I would most definitely not start with In the Beginning .. spoilers or not, it just doesn't make sense from the point of view of the narrative. Plus, I don't think it's really the kind of story that will make you care if you don't already care. Out of the context you have after 4 or 5 seasons of B5 .. I doubt it would seem like a big deal.

If Gathering seems too dated, I would go for Midnight on the Firing Line, yes.

Or, if completely disregarding continuity for the sake of trying to impress a viewer quickly .. I'd suggest staring with Parliament of Dreams, if need be.

ultimately BSG is just B5 on a ship not a space station

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How so? The only things the two shows have in common is that they're in space and they're good.

I think the "spoiler" aspects of ItB are grossly exaggerated.

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I disagree.

I've argued before that pursuing the clues to what happened on the Line with Sinclair, learning the truth as he does, is one kine of experience. Watching him try to uravel the mystery when you already know the answer is another. Neither is better or more "valid" than the other.

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So then why deny someone the first experience? You can- and should- always get the latter by watching it a second time.


I remember when I started watching B5 (TNT re-runs) I asked my mom to record In the Beginning for me. Said she and dad were in the room and thought it was the most boring thing ever and how could I be into that? When I watched it myself I understood how they can get that impression- the movie feels like a shout-out to the fans and meant for us to go "oh, that's how that happened" and "cool, look who's hanging out with who." Very B5-insider. Don't get me wrong, I like it, but specifically because I was already a fan.

Conversely, I lent my friend The Gathering and gave him all the requisite warnings about how it gets better and so forth and, upon watching it, didn't understand why I was so apologetic- he thought the story was fine. Yes he thought there were rough spots but accepted that it was a pilot.

So it's no absolute that "The Gathering suck" and "In the Beginning is great."

Look, folks, it's this simple: there's a reason In the Beginning came out after season 4.

So then why deny someone the first experience?

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??? I'm not "denying" anyone "the first experience"? I'm pointing out that there is no such thing as "THE first experiecne". There are different (and equally valid) ways of experiencing the show for the first time, just as MSW and Columbo are equally valid forms of mysteries. You are asserting that only watching the episodes first is the "correct" way to watch. I wasn't talking about the value of watching ItB in retrospect, but its value when watched first.

There is a reason In the Beginning wasn't released until after the 4h season

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Yes. That reason was nobody offered to pay to make ItB until the beginning of the 4th season, when the deal for the reruns plus the two TV movies and the re-cut of The Gathering was made. But the fact remains that JMS designed ItB as an introduction to the new fans who would be catching up with the series via the daily reruns of seasons one to four. Now there are arguments to be made on both sides, but simply to dismiss watching ItB and to assert that watching the episodes first is "THE" experience is ludicrous. Just because that is the way you experienced the series, doesn't mean that everyone else must experience it the same way.

And I've had people who turned off The Gathering halfway through even with ample warning, and only later (usually after sitting through a couple of episodes with me) overcame their distate enough to give the show a second chance. I've never had that experience when using ItB as a teaser, and never had anyone say they disliked it as a stand-alone movie. The flashback story hangs together just fine by itself as a narrative of the E-M war - no prior knowledge required to figure out who to root for or to become emotionally involved. I've seen plenty of first time viewers tear up at the President's speech before the Line, thank you very much. And the framing story jtself constitutes and interesting mystery that makes people want more.

In my experience more people are turned off by The Gathering than are confused or spoiled by ItB. And I never said anything as simple minded as "TG all bad, ItB great". TG is a good thing to watch after you've become acquainted with the actual series which TG barely hints at.

I have no problems with anybody's personal preferences, but I find the whole "you can't do that it ruins everything" attitude just silly.

Regards,

Joe

I'm not "denying" anyone "the first experience"?

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Well yeah- look, if you tell a friend, "Hey I think you'd really dig B5, check it out" and you give him ITB, and he likes it and gets into the show, then he'll never have the experience of watching the mystery unravel, right?

Sure both ways of watching the show are valid (and fun!), but you want to experience both, you have to watch the series twice- first time starting with TG, second time with either TG or ITB.

I'm merely pointing out a point of logic. And the logical conclusion is that, in order to get the most out of the show, you start with TG, so that first you get the mystery style, then you get Murder She Wrote, then you get Columbo. You can go from Murder She Wrote to Columbo but not backwards.

And no I actually didn't start with TG or ITB- I did it kind of like Memento/Pulp Fiction- I started with season 4. So I certainly am not suggesting anyone do anything I did.

And while you didn't say one is "all good" or "all bad," the general consensus amongst B5 fans is that ITB is a better movie than TG. I agree with it but was offering anecdotes of how a newb can enjoy TG and so you don't necessarily have to worry about how TG is so flawed.

ultimately BSG is just B5 on a ship not a space station

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How so? The only things the two shows have in common is that they're in space and they're good.

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what i mean is that, i have always seen B5 as BSG's spiritual ancestor, B5 was a really involved show that had fantastic character development (the best i had seen upto that point, though i was only 9 when i started watching) and gorgeous plotlines, while BSG still hasn't got the plotlines i think it will before long, but the character development i am beginning to feel outstrips B5's, if you scratch the surface they are really quite similar.

I've seen plenty of first time viewers tear up at the President's speech before the Line, thank you very much. And the framing story jtself constitutes and interesting mystery that makes people want more.

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i've never seen anyone tear up during it, though i do every time.

anyway i think i am going to go with Midnight, it was the first episode i saw and i loved it, i think he will too, the reason i am trying to get him onto it, is because although we were both raised on ST:TNG we sort of split, he still loves sci-fi but he is more into fantasy these days, and while i dig fantasy i am so much more into sci-fi, the reason i introduced him to BSG and now to B5 is because both of them have this prophetic side that give them a mildly fantasy feel, and while star wars rocked i was somewhat unconvinced by that side of it.

what i mean is that, i have always seen B5 as BSG's spiritual ancestor...

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I am fairly certian that BSG was orginally made in the 70's...so how can B5 be its ancestor?

dude you are missing the point, new BSG is so completely different from the original as to be virtually a wholly different show, i kind of figured someone would point that out. if you noticed what i wrote you would have seen that i said that BSG is very similar to B5, they are both really dark, and that was virtually unseen in sci-fi till B5, i can only think of a handful of movies and no TV shows, and oddly all the movies are based (although somewhat loosely in some cases) on novels by Dick, and even afterwards we only really see it in the later seasons of DS9 (that ron moore worked on) though they still hadn't shaken off the light hearted-ness(?) of the earlier seasons.

I'm not "denying" anyone "the first experience"?

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Well yeah- look, if you tell a friend, "Hey I think you'd really dig B5, check it out" and you give him ITB, and he likes it and gets into the show, then he'll never have the experience of watching the mystery unravel, right?

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The first Babylon 5 I saw was In the Beginning, and that movie was what convinced to me watch the series. The only mystery that I guess I missed out on was what the hole in Sinclair's mind was, but the rest of it, including the revelation in War Without End, was a surprise to me.

When he made In the Beginning, JMS described the "spoilers" as a change of perspective on the part of the audience--Sinclair's missing hours became the bomb beneath the kitchen table rather than a mystery. The audience knows it's there, but the characters don't, and the tension comes from if they can discover it in time. It gave a kick to the first season that it lacked after I knew how the story turned out. If you forgo In the Beginning, you miss out on that perspective, because once know how the story turns out, the tension dissipates.

It's really a matter of preference. Knowing what happened in the missing hours really didn't affect my enjoyment of the show in a bad way, and to be honest, I'm not disappointed at all that I missed out in the mystery, because it really wasn't all that big of a deal. By the time War Without End rolled around, so much other stuff had happened in between that I never connected the dots to guess what was going to happen. My jaw dropped at the end of that episode...

You could start them in the middle of season 3 and it wouldn't mess anything up.

I first started watching when B5 moved to TNT. I would watch new season 5 eps mixed in with reruns and I was not always able to see the reruns. I think it added to my appreciation of the show when I would see a result (season 5 gkar and londo all chummy) and would wonder how in the heck that happened when in an older season they were at each others throats.

When I finally got to see every episode in order it made the show that much more special. I can't really put it into words. It was just a profound feeling of joy seeing it all come together and make sense episode by episode

Back to Columbo vs. Murder She Wrote ..

If you take a random episode of Murder She Wrote, and watch the second half before you watch the first half .. you don't get Columbo. You just get discontinuous Murder She Wrote.

And yes, there is a joy of seeing something for the first time that you can't get back. I most certainly appreciated not having a clue of what was coming during season 3, and would kill to be able to watch season 3 like that again.

I really don't see a single reason at all to watch "In the Beginning" at the beginning of the series, aside from the fact that it has "beginning" in the title. It's not like it plays at an earlier point in time than the series does .. it plays in the late 2270s. And completely has the feel of an epilogue to me, NOT that of a new introduction that they would have wanted to do before starting the series, but didn't have the means to. It's just a completely nonsensical starting point, in every way.

The only mystery that I guess I missed out on was what the hole in Sinclair's mind was,

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Well, no, there are others.

The context of in which Londo's death vision occurs being the biggest other one ...... off the top of my head, anyway.

Londo becoming emperor.

Vir getting the imperial signet necklace after Londo and G'Kar kill each other.

Much of the information that we get through Sheridan's flash forward in WWE: Shadow War won y Sheridan, Sheridan and Delenn end up together with a son, Shadow servants on Centauri Prime, Londo's keeper.

Those things will color how one perceives the first two seasons or so. I mean, If you *know* from the start that Londo is a future Emperor, then he doesn't come across quite the same way in his early wine-women-song / ramora period. (And, yes, you can see him in the Imperial White during the vision in Midnight on the Firing Line, but the first time through you don't know what that outfit implies.)