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Ulkesh

vacantlook

Super Moderator
In the past, I've seen on multiple websites the name Ulkesh for KoshII. I can't remember having ever seen anything official statement that the second Vorlon ambassador's name was Ulkesh, so I'm curious to know if anyone knows where the name Ulkesh came from.
 
I know it was mentioned in the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" which JMS says is like 90% cannon (his wife wrote the book). I dont know if it was mentioned earlier than that.
 
It was never mentioned on the show, and I don't think JMS has ever referred to Kosh 2 as "Ulkesh". But in the novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows", the unnamed Vorlon is called that.
 
And the Technomage trilogy was next on my list to read right after I finished the Centauri trilogy a few months ago, but I've just seemed to keep putting off getting started on it.

I know it's been brought up before, I think, but I can't remember what the general stream of thought in terms of an answer was. Are the different looking encounter suits denotated different rank or possition within the Vorlon society? If so, who outranks whom: Kosh or Ulkesh?
 
As you might have guessed from my name here at b5tv, I'm something of a Vorlon devotee. Here's what I've come up with.

On the Lurker's guide, we have the words of JMS:

Is the new Kosh really Ulkesh from the novel "To Dream in the City of Sorrows?"
The new Vorlon was Ulkesh, yes...the Kosh thing was meant in a Vorlon philosophical sense. They ain't wired up like the rest of us.

So the second Vorlon was Ulkesh. Regarding the "ranks," Kosh was slightly older but not by much. That's all JMS has ever really said, but indications are that Kosh had at least some moderating influence the more Ulkesh-ish side of Vorlon policy, which we saw when the Vorlons went on the rampage. Both Vorlons were respected by the others of their race (and JMS has said that they respected each other) even if Kosh was slightly weird in his interest in younger races; with the death of one, the other came into ascendance. I believe JMS also said Kosh was worried about what Ulkesh might do if left to his own devices, perhaps implying that Kosh was keeping him reined in.

Others may have more for you.
 
Thanks KoshFan! I liked it that despite being a big bad Vorlon, Kosh still seemed torn between learning what the right thing his people should be doing and realizing that they weren't doing it and not being so sure if he could get them to do it. I can definitely see some similiarty between personalities between Kosh and Delenn: evidence of his influence on Dukhat and her.
 
If so, who outranks whom: Kosh or Ulkesh?

(Kosh) Yes. (/Kosh)

The first Kosh is Kosh Naranek, which we learn from an ISN broadcast, IIRC. The second Kosh is Kosh Ulkesh, who of course says yes to 'Are you all Kosh?'
 
Not... quite...

JMS, on the Lurker's Guide page I got the above quote from, says that the "We are all Kosh" is just a classic bit of Vorlonspeak causing confusion, some oddball Vorlon metaphor or ideology that sailed right over the heads of our fearless characters. "They aren't wired up the way we are," JMS said.
 
The first Kosh is Kosh Naranek, which we learn from an ISN broadcast, IIRC. The second Kosh is Kosh Ulkesh, who of course says yes to 'Are you all Kosh?'

Well, that's not quite what JMS has said, if I am to believe the Lurker's Guide...

Ulkesh was named Naranek, just like the original Kosh. Did Kosh2 have a distinct name that he was hiding from Sheridan ("Walkabout?")

Yes, he had another name or designation (Naranek is actually a title, not a name, hence why they both had it) and was primarily being a pain in the butt.

It's at the bottom of the 'JMS Speaks' section of the Lurker's Guide's To Dream in the City of Sorrows Page.

Honestly speaking, if I may parrot KoshFan for a moment, everytime I've ever read or heard JMS speak about Ulkesh's 'We are all Kosh' statement, he's always said ol' Ulk' was speaking metaphorically; a habit, I imagine, one picks up after hanging around Vorlon for too long.
 
the Kosh thing was meant in a Vorlon philosophical sense. They ain't wired up like the rest of us.

This part of the JMS quotation referenced above was a response to a question about the "We are all Kosh" thing in the original thread. Sometimes what JMS is referring to is hard to tell from the archives and TLG because they generally only included the portion of the question that JMS chose to quote, if any, whereas he might be answering several unquoted questions in a post, or even questions from multiple posts in a single reply. It all makes perfect sense if you're reading the exchange "live", but it can be a little confusing otherwise. Here's a selection of his answers (and some questions)

Tom Knudsen <72347.1626@compuserve.com> asks: Since Kosh and Ulkesh seem to have the authority to dictate Vorlon policy from what you've said, can we assume that they were near the top of the Vorlon heirarchy (whatever THAT may be)?

It's not a hierarchy as you or I would understand it...and the weird thing is, though I kinda know how it functions, I'll be damned if I can figure out how to explain it in words.

jms

{original post unavailable}

They're not that far apart in age, but yes, Kosh would be a bit older

jms

5. Besides being extremely old, was Kosh an average Vorlon or particularly special in terms of strength, skill, or status? No other ambassador on the station has demonstrated the clout back home to sortie an entire fleet at a moments notice. Delenn and Londo have only called on forces from a particular faction in their polities.

He was certainly well regarded...one of the older of the vorlons.

jms


And yes, Kosh and Ulkesh were contemporaries, though Ulkesh was the more military of the two, very isolationist, while Kosh was the curious one, interested in the younger races, and more willing to extend himself (with sometimes unfortunate results). Kosh always worried what Ulkesh would do without his moderating presence...and ultimately had to be the one to take him down to allow the younger races to step forward.

jms

No, I wouldn't call them friends. They had a certain respect for one another, but Ulkesh always thought Kosh was soft, and Kosh always worried that Ulkesh was dangerous. In their own ways, both were right.

jms

Certainly he came to care about us more than the vorlons intended.

jms


There's a lot more to be said of the story of Kosh, and the Vorlons in general...and part of me says explain it later...and another part says that if you explain mysteries too much, it destroys them.

jms

Regards,

Joe
 
In the past, I've seen on multiple websites the name Ulkesh for KoshII. I can't remember having ever seen anything official statement that the second Vorlon ambassador's name was Ulkesh, ...

In jms's own short story 'Hidden Agendas' (published in Vol. 2 Issue 22 of the now defunked B5 magazine) he uses the name "Ulkesh" to refer to Kosh's replacement. Besides the references that JoeDM has quoted from I know of no other uses by jms of this name.
 
In the past, I've seen on multiple websites the name Ulkesh for KoshII. I can't remember having ever seen anything official statement that the second Vorlon ambassador's name was Ulkesh, ...

In jms's own short story 'Hidden Agendas' (published in Vol. 2 Issue 22 of the now defunked B5 magazine) he uses the name "Ulkesh" to refer to Kosh's replacement. Besides the references that JoeDM has quoted from I know of no other uses by jms of this name.

Both Vorlons are named in the Book 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' There's a no-holds-barred synopsis of the book, including the names of both Vorlons, on the B5 Spoiler Junkies Archives
 
In the past, I've seen on multiple websites the name Ulkesh for KoshII. I can't remember having ever seen anything official statement that the second Vorlon ambassador's name was Ulkesh, ...

In jms's own short story 'Hidden Agendas' (published in Vol. 2 Issue 22 of the now defunked B5 magazine) he uses the name "Ulkesh" to refer to Kosh's replacement. Besides the references that JoeDM has quoted from I know of no other uses by jms of this name.

Both Vorlons are named in the Book 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' There's a no-holds-barred synopsis of the book, including the names of both Vorlons, on the B5 Spoiler Junkies Archives

Sinclair was right, time really is circular. :)

I know it was mentioned in the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" which JMS says is like 90% cannon (his wife wrote the book). I dont know if it was mentioned earlier than that. -- Recoil, 1st reply to original post, January 25th 2004 7:25 PM.

:D

Thanks for adding the link to the synopsis, which I imagine will be useful for many - but I still recommend buying and reading the book if you have the time and the money. Very much worth both.

Regards,

Joe
 
Thanks for adding the link to the synopsis, which I imagine will be useful for many - but I still recommend buying and reading the book if you have the time and the money. Very much worth both.

Totally agree. My favourite of the books so far, but I haven't read the Technomage trilogy yet. I disliked Galen so much, that I keep putting it off :)
 

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