Shaal Mayan
Regular
Question at the end of the episode Sinclair asks Knight Two who hired him to probe his mind.Who do you think hired him ?I was also thinking at the very end a member of the Grey council was also on board what was he doing there?
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And the sky full of stars ?
- Thread starter Shaal Mayan
- Start date
PillowRock
Regular
Re: And the sky was full of stars ?
My bet would be on the same group within EarthForce that was behind the colonel who comes out later, in Eyes.
My bet would be on the same group within EarthForce that was behind the colonel who comes out later, in Eyes.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Re: And the sky was full of stars ?
As far as I have understood, the Council decided that if Sinclair would remember what happened, he would have to be killed. During his meeting with Delenn, he quite luckily told her he did not remember, saving them from quite a troublesome situation. Because the conversation was overheard by someone who knew the Council decision and seemed to support it.
As far as I have understood, the Council decided that if Sinclair would remember what happened, he would have to be killed. During his meeting with Delenn, he quite luckily told her he did not remember, saving them from quite a troublesome situation. Because the conversation was overheard by someone who knew the Council decision and seemed to support it.
M
Mike G
Guest
I think that that they were working with Clark.
What I always wanted to know is why did the Grey council tell Deleen to kill Sinclair/forums/images/icons/confused.gif I mean don't they know that he's extreamly importent? If he wasn't, wouldn't they have killed him at the Battle of the Line?
It doesn't make sense. They capture him, scan him, find out he's basically one of them, call the entire War off because of him, then threaten to kill him.
They can't kill him, he's too important, and they know it. At least they should know it, if they don't why did they go to all that trouble in the first place?
It doesn't make sense. They capture him, scan him, find out he's basically one of them, call the entire War off because of him, then threaten to kill him.
They can't kill him, he's too important, and they know it. At least they should know it, if they don't why did they go to all that trouble in the first place?
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
It doesn't make sense. They capture him, scan him, find out he's basically one of them, call the entire War off because of him, then threaten to kill him.
[/quote]
They didn't call the entire war off because of him. They called the war off because through him they discovered what they believed was proof <font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000">that Minbari souls were being reborn in Human bodies. The triluminary glowed in Sinclair's presence, something it had previously only done in the presence of certain Minbari, who were believed to posses reincarnated "great souls" When it glowed for Sinclair, so Lennier tells us in S2, they captured other Humans and tested them with the triluminary. It also glowed for them. Therefore they were sure that some Humans had Minbari souls, and since Valen's first law was that Minbari must never kill Minbari, they had no choice but to end the war.</font></td></tr></table>
Opinion about Sinclair and his individual importance was divided on the Grey Council. Some thought him very important, others less so. They were unanimous, however, that neither Human nor Minbari society would benefit from learning what they had learned. So they erased his memory. (They didn't have to do this with the other Human pilots they tested. They hadn't been awake or interrogated.) So they agreed (probably with some reservations) that if Sinclair ever remembered what happened to him on the Minbari cruiser, they would kill him. When opinion about his importance shifted, this decision was almost certainly rescinded. Certainly it doesn't seem to have been in effect by the time he became Ambassador to Minbar.
Regards,
Joe
It doesn't make sense. They capture him, scan him, find out he's basically one of them, call the entire War off because of him, then threaten to kill him.
[/quote]
They didn't call the entire war off because of him. They called the war off because through him they discovered what they believed was proof <font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000">that Minbari souls were being reborn in Human bodies. The triluminary glowed in Sinclair's presence, something it had previously only done in the presence of certain Minbari, who were believed to posses reincarnated "great souls" When it glowed for Sinclair, so Lennier tells us in S2, they captured other Humans and tested them with the triluminary. It also glowed for them. Therefore they were sure that some Humans had Minbari souls, and since Valen's first law was that Minbari must never kill Minbari, they had no choice but to end the war.</font></td></tr></table>
Opinion about Sinclair and his individual importance was divided on the Grey Council. Some thought him very important, others less so. They were unanimous, however, that neither Human nor Minbari society would benefit from learning what they had learned. So they erased his memory. (They didn't have to do this with the other Human pilots they tested. They hadn't been awake or interrogated.) So they agreed (probably with some reservations) that if Sinclair ever remembered what happened to him on the Minbari cruiser, they would kill him. When opinion about his importance shifted, this decision was almost certainly rescinded. Certainly it doesn't seem to have been in effect by the time he became Ambassador to Minbar.
Regards,
Joe
1) I think Knight One and Two were supposed to be working with Bureau 13. I can't remember where I found this out, I think it was mentioned in "Spider in the Web".
2) Re: Sinclair
Even though the Grey Council were not certain of Sinclair's importance, the order to kill him if he ever finds the truth still does not make sense. They discover that Minbari souls are being reborn into human bodies, and that because Minbari do not kill Minbari they stop the war, and that the triluminary glowed - indicating that Sinclair had DNA from Valen in him - so they call off the entire war to avoid harming their own souls. To then say that Sinclair must be killed if he discovers these facts defies logic.
All things considered, the best explanation for this would seem to be that they are prepared to kill ONE of their souls to protect this secret, but are not prepared to wipe out millions of their souls as part of the war. This would suggest that the Grey Council value practicallity over principles. Also, as one third of the council are warrior caste and do not believe in such prophecies etc., and that the representatives from the worker caste could probably be swayed either way, the overall vote might just favour protecting the secret at all costs.
2) Re: Sinclair
Even though the Grey Council were not certain of Sinclair's importance, the order to kill him if he ever finds the truth still does not make sense. They discover that Minbari souls are being reborn into human bodies, and that because Minbari do not kill Minbari they stop the war, and that the triluminary glowed - indicating that Sinclair had DNA from Valen in him - so they call off the entire war to avoid harming their own souls. To then say that Sinclair must be killed if he discovers these facts defies logic.
All things considered, the best explanation for this would seem to be that they are prepared to kill ONE of their souls to protect this secret, but are not prepared to wipe out millions of their souls as part of the war. This would suggest that the Grey Council value practicallity over principles. Also, as one third of the council are warrior caste and do not believe in such prophecies etc., and that the representatives from the worker caste could probably be swayed either way, the overall vote might just favour protecting the secret at all costs.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
1) No one was thinking in terms of DNA at that point. That wouldn't become an issue until 2260 when they realized who Valen really was, and where (and when) he came from.
2) They believed the triluminary glowing for Sinclair and other Humans they tested indicated that Minbari souls were being reborn "in whole or in part" in Human bodies.
3) The presumably "extra bright" glow that Sinclair elicited convinced them that he had some or all of a "great" Minbari soul, perhaps that of Valen himself.
4) There was much disagreement about all of this within the Council. Some disputed that there were Humans with Minbari souls at all, others that Sinclair had a great soul, or at least that he didn't have Valen's. However, given their uncertainty, they couldn't take the risk of exterminating the Humans.
5) Delenn's instructions were to watch Sinclair, but not to interfere. In addition she was ordered to kill him if he learned that he had been scanned, or if the Council established that the disputed prophecies did not apply to him, for instance, if it turned out that he didn't have a Minbari soul.
I don't think the plan was to automatically kill him if he learned what happened at the line regardless of the circumstances. That wouldn't make a lot of sense. If he learned because he had a religious vision of Valen, they'd probably have to let him off the hook, for instance. But they definitely had contingency plans for dealing with all the possibilites - and one major possibility is that they had simply been wrong about what the triluminary's glow meant.
Regards,
Joe
2) They believed the triluminary glowing for Sinclair and other Humans they tested indicated that Minbari souls were being reborn "in whole or in part" in Human bodies.
3) The presumably "extra bright" glow that Sinclair elicited convinced them that he had some or all of a "great" Minbari soul, perhaps that of Valen himself.
4) There was much disagreement about all of this within the Council. Some disputed that there were Humans with Minbari souls at all, others that Sinclair had a great soul, or at least that he didn't have Valen's. However, given their uncertainty, they couldn't take the risk of exterminating the Humans.
5) Delenn's instructions were to watch Sinclair, but not to interfere. In addition she was ordered to kill him if he learned that he had been scanned, or if the Council established that the disputed prophecies did not apply to him, for instance, if it turned out that he didn't have a Minbari soul.
I don't think the plan was to automatically kill him if he learned what happened at the line regardless of the circumstances. That wouldn't make a lot of sense. If he learned because he had a religious vision of Valen, they'd probably have to let him off the hook, for instance. But they definitely had contingency plans for dealing with all the possibilites - and one major possibility is that they had simply been wrong about what the triluminary's glow meant.
Regards,
Joe
But ah, is everyone forgetting in the beginning?? They already knew he didn't just have the soul of any Minbari, he had thes soul of Valen. Delenn says as much at the interrigation. Then another member of the grey counsel is quite fussed, and dosn't know what to do. He proclaims "We can't kill him" but we can't tell the other either. So Delenn says they'll keep him close to them. Where they can watch him.
If they couldn't kill him then, I still don't see why they suddenly could kill him later. They knew he was Valen for christ sake!
If they couldn't kill him then, I still don't see why they suddenly could kill him later. They knew he was Valen for christ sake!
kin_of_zathras
Regular
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
1) I think Knight One and Two were supposed to be working with Bureau 13. I can't remember where I found this out, I think it was mentioned in "Spider in the Web".
[/quote]
I read the same thing in the Cinefantastique commemerative double issue of B5.
1) I think Knight One and Two were supposed to be working with Bureau 13. I can't remember where I found this out, I think it was mentioned in "Spider in the Web".
[/quote]
I read the same thing in the Cinefantastique commemerative double issue of B5.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
1) No one was thinking in terms of DNA at that point. That wouldn't become an issue until 2260 when they realized who Valen really was, and where (and when) he came from.
[/quote]
Well, "Atonement" showed us that when Delenn was initiated into the Grey Council, the triluminary glowed indicating to Dukhat that she was "a child of Valen", i.e. that she shared part of Valen's DNA - even though they did not know who Valen really was.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
2) They believed the triluminary glowing for Sinclair and other Humans they tested indicated that Minbari souls were being reborn "in whole or in part" in Human bodies.
[/quote]
So...? (Besides, I think I mentioned this already)
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
3) The presumably "extra bright" glow that Sinclair elicited convinced them that he had some or all of a "great" Minbari soul, perhaps that of Valen himself.
[/quote]
As mentioned by kin_of_zathras above, "In the Beginning" showed that they were pretty sure that Sinclair had the soul of Valen as Delenn stated.
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Anyway, as I said in my first post, the order is quite strange and contadictory, but can be explained with various little bits of infomation. I even gave my own version of an explanation for it. No matter how many explanations, conveniances, and coincidences we can think up, it is still a strange order.
It's just one of those things that happenes from time to time. It doesn't make perfect sense, but you can explain around it like I said in my first post.
1) No one was thinking in terms of DNA at that point. That wouldn't become an issue until 2260 when they realized who Valen really was, and where (and when) he came from.
[/quote]
Well, "Atonement" showed us that when Delenn was initiated into the Grey Council, the triluminary glowed indicating to Dukhat that she was "a child of Valen", i.e. that she shared part of Valen's DNA - even though they did not know who Valen really was.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
2) They believed the triluminary glowing for Sinclair and other Humans they tested indicated that Minbari souls were being reborn "in whole or in part" in Human bodies.
[/quote]
So...? (Besides, I think I mentioned this already)
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
3) The presumably "extra bright" glow that Sinclair elicited convinced them that he had some or all of a "great" Minbari soul, perhaps that of Valen himself.
[/quote]
As mentioned by kin_of_zathras above, "In the Beginning" showed that they were pretty sure that Sinclair had the soul of Valen as Delenn stated.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, as I said in my first post, the order is quite strange and contadictory, but can be explained with various little bits of infomation. I even gave my own version of an explanation for it. No matter how many explanations, conveniances, and coincidences we can think up, it is still a strange order.
It's just one of those things that happenes from time to time. It doesn't make perfect sense, but you can explain around it like I said in my first post.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Why didn't he keep his hair, if Delen grew hair after transforming?
[/quote]
Delenn was going from Minbari to Human. Humans have head hair, therefore she grew it. Sinclair was going from Human to Minbari. Minbari don't have head hair, therefore he lost it. Similarly Sinclair acquired a head-bone. The real question is why Delenn didn't lose hers.
Sinclair's transformation had to be virtually complete, because he had to be accepted as a Minbari for the next 100 years of his life. Delenn's transformation didn't go as far in terms of externals (genetically she had to be 100% Human, since she had a child with Sheridan.)
It isn't at all clear why Delenn's transformation was less complete. Maybe she screwed up assembling the Chrysalis device. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif The evidence of the episodes immediately following her emergence from her cocoon is that she herself did not know what the result of the transformation would be.
Maybe Sinclair, knowing what Delenn did end up looking like, set the machine to produce that result before he put it in storage. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Regards,
Joe
Why didn't he keep his hair, if Delen grew hair after transforming?
[/quote]
Delenn was going from Minbari to Human. Humans have head hair, therefore she grew it. Sinclair was going from Human to Minbari. Minbari don't have head hair, therefore he lost it. Similarly Sinclair acquired a head-bone. The real question is why Delenn didn't lose hers.
Sinclair's transformation had to be virtually complete, because he had to be accepted as a Minbari for the next 100 years of his life. Delenn's transformation didn't go as far in terms of externals (genetically she had to be 100% Human, since she had a child with Sheridan.)
It isn't at all clear why Delenn's transformation was less complete. Maybe she screwed up assembling the Chrysalis device. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif The evidence of the episodes immediately following her emergence from her cocoon is that she herself did not know what the result of the transformation would be.
Maybe Sinclair, knowing what Delenn did end up looking like, set the machine to produce that result before he put it in storage. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Regards,
Joe
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Well, "Atonement" showed us that when Delenn was initiated into the Grey Council, the triluminary glowed indicating to Dukhat that she was "a child of Valen", i.e. that she shared part of Valen's DNA - even though they did not know who Valen really was.
[/quote]
But they had no reason to believe that a Human could have Minbari DNA. Triluminaries are multipurpose devices. They power the Chrysalis machine, they can serve as a weapon (the one embedded in the head of the council leader's staff produces the ray that knocks Sinclair out cold) and they are used for "scanning" prisoners in some undefined way. A glowing triluminary presumably does not always mean the same thing.
Also remember that according to Minbari belief, souls are passed on. The notion that Delenn is a child of Valen may have as much to do with a belief that she shares a soul with one of Valen's offspring as literal genetic connection.
And while Delenn is convinced from the beginning that Sinclair has a Minbari soul and that the soul is Valen's (rather than a part of a soul, Valen's or someone else's, which would presumably make killing less of a problem), it is established that others on the council are not. The doubts about this probably grow over the intervening years, just as the doubts about the meaning of the prophecies grow.
Regards,
Joe
Well, "Atonement" showed us that when Delenn was initiated into the Grey Council, the triluminary glowed indicating to Dukhat that she was "a child of Valen", i.e. that she shared part of Valen's DNA - even though they did not know who Valen really was.
[/quote]
But they had no reason to believe that a Human could have Minbari DNA. Triluminaries are multipurpose devices. They power the Chrysalis machine, they can serve as a weapon (the one embedded in the head of the council leader's staff produces the ray that knocks Sinclair out cold) and they are used for "scanning" prisoners in some undefined way. A glowing triluminary presumably does not always mean the same thing.
Also remember that according to Minbari belief, souls are passed on. The notion that Delenn is a child of Valen may have as much to do with a belief that she shares a soul with one of Valen's offspring as literal genetic connection.
And while Delenn is convinced from the beginning that Sinclair has a Minbari soul and that the soul is Valen's (rather than a part of a soul, Valen's or someone else's, which would presumably make killing less of a problem), it is established that others on the council are not. The doubts about this probably grow over the intervening years, just as the doubts about the meaning of the prophecies grow.
Regards,
Joe
hypatia
Regular
Hmm. That time travel thing didn't even occur to me. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif I mean, in that Valen had plenty of time and fore-knowledge.
Maybe he even has a "thing" for the headcrest (head-bone, whatever that thing is called). /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
Isn't it freaky to know that Mira's make-up actually took LONGER after she transformed? I'm reading B5's book "the coming of shadows" right now. (Second Foundation has been delayed from Amazon.com so I had to read something.)
Maybe he even has a "thing" for the headcrest (head-bone, whatever that thing is called). /forums/images/icons/wink.gif
Isn't it freaky to know that Mira's make-up actually took LONGER after she transformed? I'm reading B5's book "the coming of shadows" right now. (Second Foundation has been delayed from Amazon.com so I had to read something.)
