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The Prisoner on IFC

Ouch! I watched it, then watched the pertinent scenes again, and never heard her call him "John." Yet, I could swear I had heard her do so on previous viewing. There is no obvious place where it was cut, but a possibility that it was, at one spot. Perhaps for legal purposes? Well, something I need to research... Still a good ep, though. Very sorry to see that IFC is going to show the final two-parter, one part one week, the last the next week... :mad:

Also McGoohan would never have allowed anything like that; wasn't he adamant that #6 was not Drake?

It is also fairly common for people to "hear" lines that aren't quite in a movie. I wonder if something simply makes sense to us, and we mentally "hear" a word or phrase that wasn't there, just as if it was spoken out loud. Since you've put that information into your memory, how could you tell it was kind of your inner voice rather than the voice of the actor.

A lot of lines that weren't quite phrased that way later came to be trademark quotes for big stars. The lines always make sense, and often are very close to what actually was spoken. But the memory fools us sometimes.

Exactly -- "Play it again, Sam," and "I don't know, kid, I can imagine quite a lot." You know what lines I'm talking about -- the particularly skilled/obsessive could probably continue the dialogue from those points on. And yet they never actually showed up in the movies...
 
Ouch! I watched it, then watched the pertinent scenes again, and never heard her call him "John." Yet, I could swear I had heard her do so on previous viewing. There is no obvious place where it was cut, but a possibility that it was, at one spot. Perhaps for legal purposes? :

Also McGoohan would never have allowed anything like that; wasn't he adamant that #6 was not Drake?

On the contrary. McGoohan made it pretty clear to those working on it that Number Six was John Drake. But, he had no legal rights to Danger Man, so he could never make the connection clear in the series.
 
I watched Do Not Forsake Me and stand by my recollection that it's a completely skip-able episode.

That is really stupid if they're not just going to show the final two back-to-back.
 
I have it on Wikipedia's authority that McGoohan always denied the #6-Drake connection, but that the script editor always asserted it. And there are some differences of characterization.

But I guess it would not be in keeping with the show to have easy answers.
 
I have it on Wikipedia's authority that McGoohan always denied the #6-Drake connection, but that the script editor always asserted it.

"Always denied" in what context? He couldn't openly admit it for legal reasons, but otherwise he let it be known, i.e. the script editor...
 
McGoohan difinitively did say that he wanted people to argue about the show forever. We seem to be fulfilling his wishes in that regard...

The last episode was profoundly trippy the first time I watched it -- I wasn't expecting the Beatles, or "Ezekiel," for instance. Nor was I expecting the guy from "Living in Harmony" to come back. I wasn't surprised at the identity of #1, though, although that may be because I've seen/read too many stories that come out that way -- probably influenced by "the Prisoner" itself!
 
McGoohan difinitively did say that he wanted people to argue about the show forever. We seem to be fulfilling his wishes in that regard...

The last episode was profoundly trippy the first time I watched it -- I wasn't expecting the Beatles, or "Ezekiel," for instance. Nor was I expecting the guy from "Living in Harmony" to come back. I wasn't surprised at the identity of #1, though, although that may be because I've seen/read too many stories that come out that way -- probably influenced by "the Prisoner" itself!

O.K. then KF. But the debate is hardly over. So, what is your interpretation of exactly what the last episode meant? :devil:
 
Okay, let me clarify that I wasn't surprised at his seeming identity -- i.e. under the second mask. But mostly, as I've said, because I've read so many books and seen so many films where the hero goes through the great and terrible ordeal only to have that stunt pulled. Star Wars did it... heck, B5 hinted at it with Sheridan's dream.

There are also the elements that might indicate he never actually left (the Butler comes with him, and there's the door to his apartment -- which is #1, of course), or that he's going straight back (much of the closing shots are from the opening credits).

So perhaps the entire show was a play on the idea that the Prisoner himself did not know why he had resigned, and was trying to figure it out. I like that notion... but on the whole I think I rather like the ambiguity, and I may not settle on any one idea.

The sudden inclusion of pop music fascinates me -- the music had been pretty standard background fare, with the usual themes and leitmotifs, but not at all obtrusive. And then we get four very catchy numbers that practically take over. "Ezekiel" has been stuck in my head all weekend. What I like about that one is how #48/the Kid (and they've got to be one and the same) gets the audience to sing along as the song progresses through the rebuilding of the bones, but when he sings "Dem bones gonna walk around" they can't stand the noise -- in short, the audience approves of putting the skeletons together properly, but bringing them back to life is a step much too far, a disruption of the natural order!

Also it's the masked figure representing "Anarchists" that reads the charge against #48, which I found splendidly ironic.

The DVD included "the Prisoner Video Companion," which had all sorts of wild theories, including the end of the world, with the emphasis on "Bang" and "Pop" -- which puts the inclusion of pop music more interesting, come to think of it.


And so what do I think? I think either the entire show was the Prisoner's own internal struggle to understand himself and control himself... or the entire show was vastly more significant, and really was about matters of the world hanging in the balance. Take your pick.
 
Well, I'll certainly admit that The Prisoner lends itself to many interpretations, especially the wildly surrealistic final ep. But, I think a few things are clear. He did resign, he was being held by the British. The Village was not on an island, but was on the shore of the UK. He was resisting them, and they were trying to get information from him, or at least detain him, as a dangerous person to let slip away from them.

Okay... now MY opinion of who, or really what Number One is - I'm doing this from memory, and haven't seen it in a while, but at one point when they indicate they are going to introduce Number One, we see the missile, presumably a nuclear one. Remember, when this show was new, there was a strong anti-nuke movement, symbolized by "ND," and the peace sign. I think that the nuclear missile is Number One! It is at the top, everything is based on it, it is the highest authority. The Beatles singing All You Need Is Love, considered a peace anthem in the day, could be seen as presaging that.
 
Although "All You Need Is Love" gets played over a firefight, the second time through.

I always felt he was being held by the British... if he's being held by anyone.

Your theory would imply the missile is sentient, since there are lots of conversations with Number 1. Several high-powered machines in the series, but none of them capable of that... still, interesting notion. And the Prisoner certainly "pushes the button."

Now that I'm reflecting... the use of the credits images makes me like the "it's all his own internal war" notion a lot. Right before the Prisoner pulls off Number 1's masks, Number 1 (or at least the guy wearing the Number 1 robe) hands him a crystal ball, in which we see the image of the Prisoner's face behind bars from the credits... implying that this is what the Prisoner himself sees. As if he's realizing that the entire construction of the show was in his head -- not unlike the conceit that all of B5 is a "historical documentary" created after the fact.
 
My interpretation implies the missile is God. They worship it. Yeah, I know that doesn't explain how it could talk on the phone... :D

I can't agree that Number Six sees himself as a prisoner, or that it is all a construct in his head. I believe his protestations that "I am not a number, I'm a free man."

If it isn't all done by the British, well the only alternative is that nearly all of the many British intel people we see participating in handling him are double agents, and seem to have no fear of any of their colleagues finding out.

I like the fact that Number 48 tries hitchhiking first on one side of the road, then the other...
 
Since we're already up to discussing the final episode, it's worth checking out the approach taken by this graphic novel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered_Visage_(The_Prisoner)

Basically it treats the finale as #6's fever-dream, resulting from the stress of Degree Absolute. By seeing himself as #1, he is accepting the idea of identifying himself with a number, and thus actually is finally broken, which pretty much makes him go mad and sets up the events in the comic.

I like this understanding of it for a number of reasons:

- mostly because it allows for the abstract nature of the finale to be truly taken abstractly. Maybe it's easy to just dismiss it as "dream logic," but if the episode was made that way, then I'm fine with taking it that way. This means we can safely avoid having to take its events literally and the contradictions with other episodes can be ignored.

Most notably, this means we can physically place the Village. We have three potential locations from 3 episodes:

1. The Chimes of Big Ben: Baltic coast
2. Many Happy Returns: Northwest Africa
3. Fall Out: England, driving distance from London

In Chimes, he never actually made it home, it was all staged, so it's reasonable to assume his perceived starting point was wrong. Fall Out is "dream logic," so he didn't actually drive from the Village to his London flat. In Manny Happy Returns, however, he does actually make the trip from The Village to his home, then is flown back and dropped off at the Village. Therefore, of the 3, only the one in Happy Returns makes sense as the physical location of the Village.

Another wacky possibility is that they have multiple Villages and they move everyone around every so often. We know they can drug and transport someone without knowing it (opening credits) so maybe they can do the entire population of the Village over the course of a few days.

Personally, I'm going with Northwest Africa..

- The identify of #1:
There is no need to actually have a single individual who is #1. It can be a concept designed to intimidate and coerce the Villagers. In fact, the idea of a single authoritarian figure whose existence is taken for granted, is all powerful, people are convinced is benign- this makes him a God. However I'm not claiming an anti-religion stance on the part of the series, simply because McGoohan himself was religious.

Yes we've seen #2s talking to a superior on the phone. But I don't think that was actually identified as #1. Implied, yes, but if we're talking about some powerful conspiracy here, it would be run by many people, perhaps a committee like structure like the "syndicate" on X-Files (or Metalocalypse ;) ).

So whether there is a "real" #1 is actually irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Now in dream-logic world, where these questions can be asked and answered by theme, #1 is exactly what we see.

a) #1 is an ape. People are all too eager to skip this part of the big reveal, but it's key. Our beast-like, naturalist nature comes here for two reasons:
1. One important running theme in the series is how our technological and scientific progress is outpacing our ability to absorb it. This makes us lose touch with our basic humanity and natures. Classic sci-fi here: cold technology distances us from compassion. Of course the ultimate expression of this phenomenon is the ability to completely destroy ourselves w/ nukes.
2. That same animal nature compels us to conform- it is our nature, it's what we all want, and it's what The Village masters exploit. This leads us to:

b) #1 is, of course, The Prisoner. #1 wants The Prisoner to conform = The Prisoner himself wants to conform, because he is human, regardless of his other awesome qualities and relatively individualistic nature.
This connects nicely with the comic book- The Prisoner was bound to lose eventually.

A couple of other points:

- It is understandable to assume the Village Masters are part of the British government, because everybody speaks with a British accent. But this could also simply be a result of the same reason that almost everyone in the Star Trek Federation of Planets is an American, or every astronaut and alien in Farscape is Australian- those are just the actors they had.
The woman from Chimes of Big Ben, a central episode, is Russian or Eastern European. On the one hand, this could simply be because she's a defector that's working for the British government. But in that same episode, #2 (same one from the last two episodes) explains to #6 the idea of a post-Cold War system of population control, beyond the "who's side are you working for" way of looking at things #6 is used to.
I think the Village is even beyond the standard Cold War way of looking at things.

- I haven't rewatched Living In Harmony or Fall Out yet so I'm going to reserve judgment on whether The Kid = #48 yet.
FWIW, 48 = 6 * 8
 
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I can't agree that Number Six sees himself as a prisoner, or that it is all a construct in his head. I believe his protestations that "I am not a number, I'm a free man."

But isn't that what we all like to think? And how accurate is it, really? McGoohan himself said freedom is a myth.

I like to think I'm free and nonconformist. But I still have a job, I still pay my taxes, I still want to have kids someday, and all the real nonconforming that I want to do somehow never seems to happen.

I like the fact that Number 48 tries hitchhiking first on one side of the road, then the other...

Heh. Yes. Perfect for his character. He doesn't care where he's going, just so long as he keeps moving.

a) #1 is an ape. People are all too eager to skip this part of the big reveal, but it's key. Our beast-like, naturalist nature comes here for two reasons:
1. One important running theme in the series is how our technological and scientific progress is outpacing our ability to absorb it. This makes us lose touch with our basic humanity and natures. Classic sci-fi here: cold technology distances us from compassion. Of course the ultimate expression of this phenomenon is the ability to completely destroy ourselves w/ nukes.
2. That same animal nature compels us to conform- it is our nature, it's what we all want, and it's what The Village masters exploit. This leads us to:

b) #1 is, of course, The Prisoner. #1 wants The Prisoner to conform = The Prisoner himself wants to conform, because he is human, regardless of his other awesome qualities and relatively individualistic nature.
This connects nicely with the comic book- The Prisoner was bound to lose eventually.

Great points, especially about our bestial nature -- but I'm reluctant to bring in the comic book except as an interpretation. Unless McGoohan wrote it, which I don't believe is the case.

Of course, the comic could be the logical "real-world" extrapolation of my own "it's all in his head" theory.
 
I have no problem with "it's all in his head" if we're just talking about the last episode. I've also heard that theory about the entire series and I refuse to go with that one.

I also agree that the comic isn't "canon" but I just like how it treats Fall Out- basically if since they were writing a continuation of the story, there was no choice but treat Fall Out as some dream/hallucination, so the key point becomes- what does the hallucination mean? That they choose to have The Prisoner and The Village essentially destroy each other has a nice symmetry to it.
 
One of the inspirations behind The Prisoner was a prison camp run by the British World War 2 organisation Special Operations Executive. They imprisoned returning agents whose loyalty they were no longer certain about.
 
Since we're already up to discussing the final episode, it's worth checking out the approach taken by this graphic novel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered_Visage_(The_Prisoner)

Basically it treats the finale as #6's fever-dream, resulting from the stress of Degree Absolute. By seeing himself as #1, he is accepting the idea of identifying himself with a number, and thus actually is finally broken, which pretty much makes him go mad and sets up the events in the comic.

I like this understanding of it for a number of reasons:

- mostly because it allows for the abstract nature of the finale to be truly taken abstractly. Maybe it's easy to just dismiss it as "dream logic," but if the episode was made that way, then I'm fine with taking it that way. This means we can safely avoid having to take its events literally and the contradictions with other episodes can be ignored.
I don't like that interpretation, for a number of reasons. I want him to triumph, and I believe he did. I don't think a "fever dream" is necessary to take the ep abstractly, nor do I think we need to avoid taking its events literally. I think it is BOTH - it is surrealism. I don't think we have to avoid contradictions with other eps. I don't really think there are major ones, but this is the finale - what we see here is revealed truth, so if it contradicts something from earlier, that was in error.




Most notably, this means we can physically place the Village. We have three potential locations from 3 episodes:

1. The Chimes of Big Ben: Baltic coast
2. Many Happy Returns: Northwest Africa
3. Fall Out: England, driving distance from London

In Chimes, he never actually made it home, it was all staged, so it's reasonable to assume his perceived starting point was wrong. Fall Out is "dream logic," so he didn't actually drive from the Village to his London flat. In Manny Happy Returns, however, he does actually make the trip from The Village to his home, then is flown back and dropped off at the Village. Therefore, of the 3, only the one in Happy Returns makes sense as the physical location of the Village.

Another wacky possibility is that they have multiple Villages and they move everyone around every so often. We know they can drug and transport someone without knowing it (opening credits) so maybe they can do the entire population of the Village over the course of a few days.

Personally, I'm going with Northwest Africa..

I'm going with within driving distance of London. I believe 48 is a real person, not a figment of "dream logic." But, I will say that I think that multiple villages is a much greater probability than #1 or #2 on its own, and that it is also possible that NONE of your four (incl. multiples) possibilities is the true one. But, I'm still with near London.


- The identify of #1:
There is no need to actually have a single individual who is #1. It can be a concept designed to intimidate and coerce the Villagers. In fact, the idea of a single authoritarian figure whose existence is taken for granted, is all powerful, people are convinced is benign- this makes him a God. However I'm not claiming an anti-religion stance on the part of the series, simply because McGoohan himself was religious.

Yes we've seen #2s talking to a superior on the phone. But I don't think that was actually identified as #1. Implied, yes, but if we're talking about some powerful conspiracy here, it would be run by many people, perhaps a committee like structure like the "syndicate" on X-Files (or Metalocalypse ;) ).

So whether there is a "real" #1 is actually irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

I agree with most of this. However, at least a couple of times, the current #2 does say "#1," when talking to them on the phone. #1 may be a rotating position, or change appointments almost as often as #2. #1 may be a committee, possibly the Hooded/robed figures in Fall Out. And, surely #1 is not the top dog, but probably has superiors in intel, and surely in the civilian gov. In support of my interpretation that #1 is in fact the nuclear missile, I will point out that Fall Out is the deadly result of a nuclear explosion, and when this show was made, that is the first thing most people would think of, when they read "fall out."

b) #1 is, of course, The Prisoner. #1 wants The Prisoner to conform = The Prisoner himself wants to conform, because he is human, regardless of his other awesome qualities and relatively individualistic nature.
This connects nicely with the comic book- The Prisoner was bound to lose eventually.

I don't buy this for a minute. This is what sets the prisoner apart - he wants to do as his conscience dictates, and has no interest in conforming to things he doesn't agree with, because THAT is his nature.


- It is understandable to assume the Village Masters are part of the British government, because everybody speaks with a British accent. But this could also simply be a result of the same reason that almost everyone in the Star Trek Federation of Planets is an American, or every astronaut and alien in Farscape is Australian- those are just the actors they had.
The woman from Chimes of Big Ben, a central episode, is Russian or Eastern European. On the one hand, this could simply be because she's a defector that's working for the British government. But in that same episode, #2 (same one from the last two episodes) explains to #6 the idea of a post-Cold War system of population control, beyond the "who's side are you working for" way of looking at things #6 is used to.
I think the Village is even beyond the standard Cold War way of looking at things.

In several eps it is quite clear that #6's superiors in London are totally in cahoots with those behind the Village. In Do Not Forsake Me, It is clear that Sir Charles, who was #6's superior in the spy biz, and the father of his fiance Janet, and Sir C.'s colleagues, are all in on the scam being run on #6, to lead them to the professor. I think it is unequivocal that The Village is run by the British. The only alternative is to believe that a big chunk of British intel is openly working for some other entity.

There are people from many nations in the Village, that is clear. Probably most were double agents, or just spies for the British. Some may actually be there to retire, because it is unsafe for them elsewhere. Others may be there, because they are deemed to be a risk to have elsewhere. And, there may be a few who are agents of other countries, there against their will. They probably get at least as special treatment as #6.
 
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And another thing or two... ;)

If I were #6, as soon as I could work out where they stored the gasoline for their golf carts, I would have stolen some, and set "the Green Dome," (that is #2's residence, and the control hub,) on fire.

Also, I watched about a 10 minute preview of the new show on AMC. It looked rather interesting, but quite different in many of its premises. I look forward to checking it out.
 
Another layer to the mystery of Number 1, of course, is the symbolism of never actually interacting with/fighting the true people at the top, only their underlings... that's true to life. Leo McKern's Number 2 does that brilliantly, pointing out that both he and Number 6 are prisoners just alike -- just as most soldiers in all wars are a lot more like their opposing soldiers than like their superiors. The footsoldiers of the struggle get used, abused, stepped on, and shoved about.

Not that surprising, really, that Number 2 and the Butler threw in with the Prisoner, when you come to think of it.

If I were #6, as soon as I could work out where they stored the gasoline for their golf carts, I would have stolen some, and set "the Green Dome," (that is #2's residence, and the control hub,) on fire.

If I were the Prisoner I'd almost immediately start using the tactics he used in "Hammer into Anvil."
 
I got the idea that the butler was coming to admire, and respect, the Prisoner. Very subtly, of course. I really dug Angelo Muscat...
 

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