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Crusade -- "War Zone"

FreeBaGeL

Regular
Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

I know there's a Crusade DVD's thread, but I've only seen one episode in the series so I'd rather not have to sift through there and risk having something spoiled for me, so please bear with me.

My Crusade DVD's finally came in and I just got finished watching the first episode: "War Zone."

I'm very sorry to say it, and I don't mean to offend anyone here, but as someone who thinks that the original B5 was the best show in television history, I can definitely see why Crusade didn't last past it's first season.

Now, this is setting all storyline stuff aside. I'm not going to judge the story based on one episode. What I'm talking about here is production.

It all starts with the acting. Yikes. Completely flat and then just flat-out bad. The supporting actors are terrible and not believable.

From there comes the graphics. For a show that came out years after the original B5, the graphics seem to have gone backwards. The ships fighting in space look great, everything else looks straight out of the 70's. Most of the CG of buildings, people on planets, etc looks like a cartoon, so when they put a real live flesh person in the foreground the two just contradict each other so badly and the borders between the two stand out like an orange street cone in a grassy field. Everything just looks so fake, whereas in the original everything looked so immersive.

Worst of all is the music. Now I'm assuming that the music isn't composed by the same person as the original B5. This is very disheartening since the music in the original B5 was so spectacular, and here we have music that seems to have every score composed with a background sound that I can only describe as sounding like Mexican Maracas. Hardly dramatic and it makes taking the dramatic scenes in a serious manner a chore.

Put all this together, and it just doesn't feel right. Some simple examples from "War Zone": When the Earth Destroyer chasing the Drakh ship sends out the distress signal, everyone seems to be sitting around talking casually, there's no sense of urgency, then the ship blows up? Me and my girlfriend were both kind of like "what the heck" when the ship blew because none of the actors were conveying any emotion about the fact that they were about to die.

A little bit later, someone on the IPX expedition takes a shuttle to the Drakh crash site and the Drakh begins firing on him. Before blowing up he manages to bore out "I'm being fired upon, repeat I'm under attack, etc etc" in a tone that can only be described as the same way someone would sit at a coffee table and tell their friend Bob about their day at the office. The Mexican Maracas in the background certainly don't make it any more dramatic.

As a whole it just seems so shallow, lacking any depth or emotion whatsoever. And of the few attempts to convey emotion, they're done so poorly that you have to hold back the laughter.

Again, this isn't meant to start some big arguements, I haven't read the other Crusade thread because I didn't want the story spoiled, so I don't know if others feel this way as well or if I'm just basically elicitting a slew of attacks against me by posting this. When I watched the original B5 DVD's I couldn't wait to start up the next one after one of them finished, and me and my girlfriend often ended up watching 5 of them in one night, starting from the very beginning. At the end of this episode we both found ourselves bored and uninvolved after only one episode, with no real desire to watch the next one.

It had nothing to do with the story. I guess it just couldn't live up to the lofty expectations I have for anything with the "B5" tag to it, although I really don't think I'd watch this were it uninvolved with B5 and hence didn't have any expectations anyway.

:(
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Some simple examples from "War Zone": When the Earth Destroyer chasing the Drakh ship sends out the distress signal, everyone seems to be sitting around talking casually, there's no sense of urgency, then the ship blows up? Me and my girlfriend were both kind of like "what the heck" when the ship blew because none of the actors were conveying any emotion about the fact that they were about to die.

That's called fatalism. They know they're about to die. What do you expect, hysterics? The female officer put her hand on the back of the Captains chair when she heard the status report. That says it all. She knew it was over, and that they were dead.

Look at the ending of "The Thing" (1982). Kurt Russel and Keith David were waiting there to freeze/die, drinking Jack Daniels. Fatalism. No use getting worked up over something you can do nothing about. Get it?



A little bit later, someone on the IPX expedition takes a shuttle to the Drakh crash site and the Drakh begins firing on him. Before blowing up he manages to bore out "I'm being fired upon, repeat I'm under attack, etc etc" in a tone that can only be described as the same way someone would sit at a coffee table and tell their friend Bob about their day at the office.

Well, that guy (Jensen) was a winner of the Darwin Award for his clear lack of ability to see, and his choice of flying a tight, slow turn ("evasive maneuvers") right over top of the Drakh. Granted, he wasn't a Starfury pilot, but who flys evasive maneuvers right over top of what is essentially an AA battery? :eek: Sheesh! You hit full afterburners, hit the deck, jink, skid (bank with opposite rudder), and try to put some ground cover between you and the bad guys fire. You don't do tight turns right over an AA nest. :eek: :rolleyes:


The Mexican Maracas in the background certainly don't make it any more dramatic.
It's Asian.

As a whole it just seems so shallow, lacking any depth or emotion whatsoever. And of the few attempts to convey emotion, they're done so poorly that you have to hold back the laughter.

Tim Thomerson was flat. Seemed he had problems getting his lines out. The other guy, Mr. Ames, was much better.

"War Zone" was the episode made at TNT's behest. "Racing the Night" on Disc 3 was supposed to be the first episode, but then TNT started screwing around with the show. Still, I like "War Zone" for the Max Eilerson scenes. The Dureena/Gideon scenes at the beginning were also good.


Again, this isn't meant to start some big arguements, I haven't read the other Crusade thread because I didn't want the story spoiled, so I don't know if others feel this way as well or if I'm just basically elicitting a slew of attacks against me by posting this. When I watched the original B5 DVD's I couldn't wait to start up the next one after one of them finished, and me and my girlfriend often ended up watching 5 of them in one night, starting from the very beginning. At the end of this episode we both found ourselves bored and uninvolved after only one episode, with no real desire to watch the next one.

It had nothing to do with the story. I guess it just couldn't live up to the lofty expectations I have for anything with the "B5" tag to it, although I really don't think I'd watch this were it uninvolved with B5 and hence didn't have any expectations anyway.

Watch starting with Disc 3, instead. One of the ways that Warner Brothers screwed up this DVD release was that they put the set in damned TNT-Atlanta's screwed-up "broadcast order." "War Zone" was never meant to exist. It wasn't needed, IF "A Call to Arms" (the TV movie) would have aired right before "Racing the Night." However, TNT aired "War Zone" and then "A Call to Arms" and then the rest of the Crusade episodes in the order they are on the DVD set. Also, it's worth mentioning that the existing 13 episodes were not meant to be seen back-to-back. 10 other episodes were supposed to fill in some of the spots between the existing eps.

Here's about as good a viewing order as is possible to come up with (ignore the uniform changes, another TNT-Atlanta induced problem).

"War Zone"
"Racing the Night"
"The Needs of Earth"
"The Memory of War"
"The Long Road"
"Visitors from Down the Street" (the X-Files-ish ep., campy prosthetics/good dialogue)
"The Well of Forever"
"Each Night I Dream of Home"
"Patterns of the Soul"
"The Path of Sorrows"
"Ruling from the Tomb"
"The Rules of the Game"
"Appearances and Other Deceits"
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Let me be the first to say that that is probably the worst episode in the series, and just about everyone here agrees that episode should have been skipped. An introductory episode was demanded by TNT, even though JMS didn't think one was necessary. It also was fiddled with by TNT to make it much worse.

Now, I will let others go into more detail of what I just.

I also recommend The Lurkers Guide to Babylon 5 if you haven’t checked it out already.

Edit: Gah! KoshN beat me to it. I trust his explanation had a lot more flare then mine.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Well, I just watched the 2nd episode and I must agree it was MUCH better.

I'm still a little worried though that the only reason I liked it so much better was that it focused around Gideon and Galen, and the rest of the actors seem to me to be the ones that are struggling with their profession :p. I actually really like Galen's character and actor, I should've mentioned that in the original post. I'm also still a bit worried about the CG, it was just SO BAD in the first one, the 2nd one didn't really have much of it so I couldn't tell if that was just an outlier, though I'd imagine they're using all the same development tools throughout the series.

Lastly, the music still bugs me immensely. Is it just me or is there only one track that they play every time they need music? I swear they all sound the same (and it's not a good type of the same).

Anyway, here's hoping to more Galen and maybe a little more Gideon. Also I see Lockley on the cover of the set and in the intro so I'm assuming she'll be making an intro to the series soon, so maybe that will help to weed out some of the other characters. The two guys from the IPX team just annoy me everytime they come on the screen.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Well, I just watched the 2nd episode and I must agree it was MUCH better.

Meaning "The Long Road" ? It had the CG Giant Gold Dragon, CG Holodemons, CG ships in orbit, CG Bar exteriors, CG exteriors of Alwyn's house, CG Mine (poor, IMHO), CG Technomage effects of Alwyn at the mine, CG of Alwyn's ship leaving, etc. etc. Lot and lots of CG.

It's actually best if you watch it in the order I listed above, NOT the DVD Set order (which introduces continuity errors).


I actually really like Galen's character and actor, I should've mentioned that in the original post.

Ohhh, wait till Demon gets ahold of you. :LOL: She can't stand Peter Woodward as Galen.


I'm also still a bit worried about the CG, it was just SO BAD in the first one, the 2nd one didn't really have much of it so I couldn't tell if that was just an outlier, though I'd imagine they're using all the same development tools throughout the series.

Listen to JMS's commentary on "Racing the Night."


Lastly, the music still bugs me immensely. Is it just me or is there only one track that they play every time they need music? I swear they all sound the same (and it's not a good type of the same).

At first I didn't like the music. I was used to Chris Franke, and liked his music. However, over time, I began to like the Crusade music (all except for the crap at the end of "Ruling from the Tomb"). That's not even "music." It's noise.

Anyway, here's hoping to more Galen and maybe a little more Gideon.

You will. Just watch it in the order I listed above.


Also I see Lockley on the cover of the set and in the intro so I'm assuming she'll be making an intro to the series soon, so maybe that will help to weed out some of the other characters.

Lochley? Weed out? For a long time, I thought Lochley needed weeded out. Lochley eps in bold below.

"War Zone"
"Racing the Night"
"The Needs of Earth"
"The Memory of War"
"The Long Road"
"Visitors from Down the Street"
"The Well of Forever"
"Each Night I Dream of Home"
"Patterns of the Soul"
"The Path of Sorrows"
"Ruling from the Tomb"
"The Rules of the Game"
"Appearances and Other Deceits"





The two guys from the IPX team just annoy me everytime they come on the screen.

I presume you mean Max Eilerson and Trace (the surviving shuttle pilot)? Max became one of my favorite characters after seeing all 13 episodes. :) He changes within these 13 episodes. Witness what he does at the end of "Patterns of the Soul" even though he's under pressure from IPX, and at the end of "Appearances and Other Deceits." Witness how someone close to him describes him in "Rules of the Game."

Re. Trace, well, he was the "Keffer" of Crusade. Still, even he got some fleshing out of his character in "Ruling from the Tomb" (my least liked episode).
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Originally posted by FreeBaGeL

When it comes to the music: I don't agree!
When it comes to the acting: I mostly don't agree.
When it comes to the CG effects: I mostly agree.

After the first shock, I grew to love the music. I think it got a beat that adds to the tension.
The acting is, IMHO, fairly decent.
The CG effects are, as you said, often very cheesy. There is for instance a scene with Galen and a campfire, and scenes from a deserted planet (the one with the Drakh ship? I think it's the one that one of our main characters come from (?)) etc which are very bad. :(

When it comes to the story, the episodes feel like a cross between B5 and that other series. The best of both worlds?

/IamS
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

I actually really like Galen's character and actor, I should've mentioned that in the original post.

Ohhh, wait till Demon gets ahold of you. :LOL: She can't stand Peter Woodward as Galen.

Now, now. That isn't quite true. I can't stand Peter Woodward in ANY role :devil: I think he's a bad TV actor, slightly better on the big screen and probably not bad at all on stage, but he appears never to have learned to adjust his performance to the medium. He is WAY over the top as Galen, too theatrical, too 'English', too...too...

OK, just too much and not in a good way :)

Strangely, I loved Peter's father in The Long Road, as he hit exactly the right pitch. Theatrical but subtle, flexible and wide ranging in his delivery.

Peter has a lot to learn from his Dad ;)
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Originally posted by FreeBaGeL:
I'm very sorry to say it, and I don't mean to offend anyone here, but as someone who thinks that the original B5 was the best show in television history, I can definitely see why Crusade didn't last past it's first season.

Just to clear up a misconception you might have.

First, Crusade was cancelled BEFORE IT EVER WAS AIRED by TNT, and that mainly due to JMS not doing what the network wanted to do. So quality of episodes in the eyes of the viewers were not a factor in its early demise.

Second, WarZone was not supposed to be the premier. JMS intended "Racing the Night" to be the first episode, as the show was originally to be aired right after "A Call to Arms" so a true pilot episode wouldn't be needed. TNT decided they wanted a pilot, and to start it more action packed, with a good ol' fistfight. Warzone is an episode JMS wishes he was never told to make. So it also shouldn't really be held against the strength of the show.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

...and that mainly due to JMS not doing what the network wanted to do.

That is the superficial constructed reason why TNT cancelled it. The reality as told by jms at the Hawthorne convention is that suits at TNT weren't pleased that the fifth season of Babylon 5 didn't add to their viewer base. In other words, those that tuned to their channel to watch Babylon 5 didn't stick around to watch anything else, and those that normally watch their channel tuned out when Babylon 5 came on. These suits didn't get this information until after they had signed contracts to do Crusade, so they couldn't back out of doing Crusade without violating the contract. So, they opted to construct the demise of the show through a plan of confusing, contradictory, and egregious notes on the show and its episodes and characters so they could cancel the show while saying they weren't getting the show they wanted.

To quote jms from the convention specifically:

JMS: I want the real truth to come out. Including the fact...I ran into some guys who worked for TNT about two years after Crusade went down. And they said, "Did you ever hear the rest of the story?" JMS: "What rest of the story?" TNT guys: "We found out, we did a research survey, a five year long study of our ratings. This was just after Crusade got going. And, we found out that the audience for B5 came for B5, then left afterward. And the TNT regular viewers didn't stick around for B5 and went away and came back. B5 wasn't adding to our viewer base." So...they decided to pull the plug on Crusade for that reason and use the money to buy another show. But they couldn't say that because they'd be in breach of contract with Warner Bros. So their job was to make it impossible for us so they could then say, "We aren't getting the show we want, our notes aren't being dealt with, therefore we aren't responsible, we're canceling the show, this is your nut Warner Bros., you take care of it." That is why all the notes became so egregious. If I had given them everything they wanted, they still would have pulled the plug. They just wanted out. Yeah, I want that information out there.

In making the deal to do commentaries for the Crusade DVD set, jms informed those in charge that the only way he'd do commentaries is if they let him tell the truth about what all happened. As he said in the quote above, he wanted that information out there. Those in charge agreed, he made the commentaries saying what he wanted, and then come the release and that information was not included.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

...and that mainly due to JMS not doing what the network wanted to do.

That is the superficial constructed reason why TNT cancelled it. The reality as told by jms at the Hawthorne convention is that suits at TNT weren't pleased that the fifth season of Babylon 5...

Just the fifth season? I thought it was Babylon 5 in general. The year long survey would have probably covered more than just the final primetime season. It seems that sci-fi and sports/westerns/cop show viewerships don't mix.


... didn't add to their viewer base. In other words, those that tuned to their channel to watch Babylon 5 didn't stick around to watch anything else, and those that normally watch their channel tuned out when Babylon 5 came on. These suits didn't get this information until after they had signed contracts to do Crusade, so they couldn't back out of doing Crusade without violating the contract. So, they opted to construct the demise of the show through a plan of confusing, contradictory, and egregious notes on the show and its episodes and characters so they could cancel the show while saying they weren't getting the show they wanted.

To quote jms from the convention specifically:

JMS: I want the real truth to come out. Including the fact...I ran into some guys who worked for TNT about two years after Crusade went down. And they said, "Did you ever hear the rest of the story?" JMS: "What rest of the story?" TNT guys: "We found out, we did a research survey, a five year long study of our ratings. This was just after Crusade got going. And, we found out that the audience for B5 came for B5, then left afterward. And the TNT regular viewers didn't stick around for B5 and went away and came back. B5 wasn't adding to our viewer base." So...they decided to pull the plug on Crusade for that reason and use the money to buy another show. But they couldn't say that because they'd be in breach of contract with Warner Bros. So their job was to make it impossible for us so they could then say, "We aren't getting the show we want, our notes aren't being dealt with, therefore we aren't responsible, we're canceling the show, this is your nut Warner Bros., you take care of it." That is why all the notes became so egregious. If I had given them everything they wanted, they still would have pulled the plug. They just wanted out. Yeah, I want that information out there.

In making the deal to do commentaries for the Crusade DVD set, jms informed those in charge that the only way he'd do commentaries is if they let him tell the truth about what all happened. As he said in the quote above, he wanted that information out there. Those in charge agreed, he made the commentaries saying what he wanted, and then come the release and that information was not included.


When those facts are placed alongside each other, it appears that TNT-Atlanta and Warner Brothers suits are very much alike (virtually identical, perhaps the same people), and that's not a compliment.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Just the fifth season? I thought it was Babylon 5 in general.

I don't know; perhaps the "study" that TNT did did include the season one through season four reruns as well.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

CRUSADE ORDER


In my opinion the best way to view Crusade is to view the episodes in an order were most things happens in the most logical order.

I use the ep numbers from the DVD (identical to the TNT order). Information from the 3 unfilmed scripts is used along with the jms interview on the DVD.

There are a lot of threads and to avoid giving away spoilers they are:

A – Uniforms

As jms says on the DVD we start off with black, switch to grey, and after an unfilmed episode (To the Ends of the Earth) the rest of the eps have black uniforms. This paces ep 9 to 13 in the middle.

B - Dates

1 happens first, 2 happens early (listen to the Capt of the Earthforce ship), 10 is four months later (than Call to Arms), 12 takes place 13.may, 6 in june and in 7 there are a little over 4 years left to find the cure.

C – Lochley vs Gideon

In 6 is the first meeting, 13 takes place later and in 7 this evolves further. The fourth Lochley ep is unfilmed.

D – The virus

The nanotech virus is invented in 10, mentioned in 13 (but not yet used) and used in 5.

E – The Apocalypse box

We are introduced to the box in 9, sees it again in 10, learn a lot in 4.

F – New teep rules

To learn gradually more of this the order should be 1, 12, 3, 4.

G – Gideons background (Cerberus)

The suspense is best kept about Gideons connection to Cerberus if 1 comes before 11, then 4.

H – Max

Max is annoying. To keep the image buildup of max Max and to enhance the joy of seeing Max I put 7 last. (This is “ok” for Chambers too).

I – Dureena vs Galen

This is difficult to track, but 3 should come late.

J – Isabelle

Who is she and more. 3 before 4.

K – Suspense and secrets

Because of this 4 must come towards the end.

There are several episodes that is hard to place, so the jms order of the black episodes is ok. I choose to ignore the june date shown in 6 because it clashes with the Lochley arc.

By writing all this relations on post-its and juggle them around, we arrive at a useful order, like this:

1 War zone – january, teep 1
2 The Long Road – feb or mars
6 Ruling from the Tomb - Lochley 1
8 Appearances and Other Deceits - gets grey uniforms
9 Racing the Night – Black uniforms 1, box 1
11 The Needs of Earth – Cerberus 1
10 The Memory of War - virus 1
12 Visitors from down the Street - 13. may, teep 2
13 Each Night I Dream of Home - Lochley 2, virus 2
3 The Well of Forever – teep 3, Isabelle 1
5 Patterns of the Soul – virus 3
4 Path of Sorrows – Isabelle 2, box 3
7 Rules of the Game – late, Lochley 3, Max last

This order is not perfect, because no Crusade order can be perfect without reediting the eps, but this order keeps things as logical as possible.

I can come up with better arguments but not without revealing major ep spoilers and the big picture.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

It seems that sci-fi and sports/westerns/cop show viewerships don't mix.

Similar problem to that experienced by B5 on its move to Bravo in the UK. Prime-time slot didn't work for a viewer base used to seeing lots of T&A alongside "classic" shows like Knight Rider. Oh .. and wrestling.

Likewise, Jeremiah didn't work for Sky One in a slot surrounded by the like of "Temptation Island", "Vegas Uncovered", "The Villa" and sundry other sex and drinking reality shows.

Some of these TV stations really need to get a clue.

:rolleyes:
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Likewise, Jeremiah didn't work for Sky One in a slot surrounded by the like of "Temptation Island", "Vegas Uncovered", "The Villa" and sundry other sex and drinking reality shows.

Some of these TV stations really need to get a clue.

:rolleyes:

Not sure I'd totally agree with you re Sky. Programmes like Stargate, Andromeda, Enterprise (I know, I know, I'm getting to the good one :)) and Battlestar Galactica have found a home on Sky One and done well.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

Demon, I think you're missing the "important part of the sentence".

GH specifies the "time slot" is the problem on that channel, not the channel in general. During the time slot on that channel, they tried Jeremiah, the viewing base was expecting to see mindless, sexy Reality TV. (At least that's the way I read the comment)
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

I still don't agree. The scheduling for Battlestar Galactica next week is as follows:

19:00 The Simpsons
19:30 The Simpsons
20:00 Battlestar Galactica
21:00 Proof Positive
22:00 Toughest Pubs in Britain

OK, Proof Positive is a sort of Sci Fi related programme, but not sure about the rest. Yet Battlestar is doing well, I believe.

And how will Farscape perform on Sunday night I wonder? The schedule is:

19:00 Malcolm in the Middle
19:30 Oliver Beene
20:00 Dream Team
21:00 Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars
22:55 24
23:55 America's Toughest Prisons

I've never watched Dream Team, but I believe it's about footballers. If your theory is correct, this could be a really bad slot for Farscape.

And I know we've wandered a little off topic :)
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

But 24 is on after Farscape. I would imagine they'd keep viewers from Farscape.
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

20:00 Dream Team

I've never watched Dream Team, but I believe it's about footballers.

You're sure it's not that failed piece of dren about dream analysis that the US Sci-Fi Channel had?

"Dream Team with Annabelle & Michael" :p
 
Re: Crusade -- \"War Zone\"

The problem with Jeremiah on Sky One, I believe, was not with the channel itself, but the specific slot - as already stated.

I would guess partly because of the language and nudity content, it was given a 10pm slot - later than every show brought up for comparison. However, even that isn't the issue.

When it was aired it was bookended by shows of the nature that I gave examples of. I tuned into Sky at 10pm for Jeremiah and tuned out at the end of the ep - I never watched the shows either side. I'll bet a fair proportion of the audience did likewise.

Interesting to note that when it was shifted to the middle of the night it was replaced by Vegas Uncovered IIRC, giving a 3-4 hour run of similar shows about people drinking and getting laid.

Nice if you like that sort of thing, but not the sort of evening likely to attract the average viewer of intelligent SF drama!

OTOH, if Jeremiah had been in a slot where it followed something like The 4400, BSG or even Andromeda (mm ... perhaps) I'm sure it would have been much more at home.

It was the way it was scheduled rather than the channel per se that I think was the problem - sorry if I didn't make that clear.
 

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