The "Firewall" Thread (Spoilers)

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

I stumbled on more questions about leftover technology and society. I asked myself this: if Earth would be hit by some especially horrible bioweapon, which systems would fall last? Which could endure the outbreak? I suspect the following:

<font color=yellow>1. Nuclear submarines</font color=yellow>

The largest missile subs have awfully long independent operating times. Some can remain submerged for a year (provided that food supplies exist) and operate without new fuel for years. Motivated by despair, they might remain underwater for much longer times.

It would be natural that when the oubreak started, someone instructed the big fish... to stay underwater as long as humanly possible, surface only in remote and uninhabited places, observe what happens in populated places... and wait for contact.

Some might still be cruising the oceans, conserving fuel, observing and waiting. Should anyone manage to contact such a "first one" they might gain incredibly valuable information, and perhaps a destructive power much greater than viruses. They might gain weapons which can destroy not only humanity but also the ecosystem.

<font color=yellow>2. Space stations</font color=yellow>

Space stations have long idependent operating times. If anyone up there would see the planet going to hell in a handbasket, they would probably try three things. First, they would try to last long and gather information. Second, if they would run out of supplies, they would land and see if they live.

Third and most important, even if landing, they would probably try to keep the info they gathered accessible. They would set the station (or reprogram some satellites) to transmit that information to anyone who can tune in. Anyone who can tune in to the collected last words of the previous civilisation might have a chance of curing the Big Death, or restoring some degree of a functioning society.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Lenier, US nuclear aircraft carriers (Nimitz Class) reactors can operate at full power for 22 years. US fast attack (Los Angeles Class) and ballistic missle (Ohio Class) nuclear sub reactors can operate at a lot less than full power for about 15-20 years at the most between refuelings.

If you could find an island with no human inhabitants you could wait out the big D for quite a while.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Yeah, I expected it. It's not a very original story twist, but an effective one (although that earring he went to could be fake metal bought at Claire's...)

From what we can see, the Big Death comes on quickly, and kills just as quickly. Something causes blood to seep from the mouth, the ears, and the eyes at death (come on, there have to be some medical people out there!). There's stomach/torso pain and nausea. Dementia and blackouts.

Now... here's the interesting thing. Did he actually CONTACT the body, or just the earring? We saw the blood welling up. Could the Big Death be air-carried, or is that inconsistent?

That dude was just a regular security/military grunt. He wasn't a scientist. Although he might have been more privy to information, remember the REAL scientists said that the Center For Disease Control had no freakin' idea how it was passed...

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Sounds very much like a form of Hemorrhagic fever.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

I thought the earring cut through his environmental suit glove and drew blood from his finger when he tried to remove it from the dead persons ear. The dead person had to touch the earring to put it on probably transferring some of the virus to the earring. The thief from TM touched the earring when it went through the suit becoming the new host for the virus. The virus can probably stay dormant for a quite while outside a body until a new host touches it.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Fellas, we have one helluva damned good show!

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kraig:
<font color=yellow>US fast attack (Los Angeles Class) and ballistic missle (Ohio Class) nuclear sub reactors can operate at a lot less than full power for about 15-20 years at the most between refuelings.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote> I suspected it was towards higher numbers, but didn't know well enough to say anything certain. There is however one matter which would shorten the time. While the reactor might not need new fuel, other systems might need spare parts, and their onboard supply would be limited. But either way, if those figures are correct, there might easily be fish in the ocean even in Jeremiah's time.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

One of them could come across Claire...

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Thanks to all of you for keeping me updaated on Jeremiah who will have to see when and if it comes out on dvd or on another network first .

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Aircraft carriers (Nimitz Class) have machine shops that can manufacture most needed parts. They have built in redundancy in most critical systems. As an example they have 2 reactors but only need one for full power operations. They make their own fresh water from sea water. They have up to 85 aircraft, parts from those that break down could be used to keep the others flying.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Originally posted by Lennier:
[
1. Nuclear submarines

It is likely some of the subs, and possibly some surface ships, did find a safe place far off the beaten path. Most captains would not risk their crew and ship to certain death. And given the life of their power plants, probably decided to use the sea and land to feed their crews. They also would have the ability to communicate with any other remaining ship/sub and any surviving central command. Raises all kinds of interesting possibilities.

2. Space stations

Spcae stations depend on frequent resupply to keep operating so the crew aboard most likely could last a few months but then would have to return to earth. As for reprogramming the station and satellites, wouldn't do much good since orbits have to be corrected fairly often. Thus, it wouldn't be too long before the station and satellites drifted from ordit and their orbits starting to decay. That is one of the problems I have with GPS use. After 15 years any remaining satellites would be far from where they were supposed to be so readings on the ground would be worthless. Now it is possible the people at TM or VS have the ability to reposition sats but even if they do, a lot of the sats will have failed over the 15 year span.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Kraig:

The problem with carriers would be their more open design. I know that some can be sealed up against chemical attack, but they are not designed to be operated like that. When you have birds from all over the world "bombing" the flight deck, wandering outside might be risky. Submarines on the other hand move in a biologically active environment which will consider any viruses just another form of food.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Okay, that was one fantastic episode. "Signs and Portents", indeed!

A couple of things, though, one minor and one major:

The minor one. Quantrell says "we're going to build a society based on power." Now, I know good and well that there are scary dudes just like this out there. But making a statement like that is a blatant admission of villainy. Very, very few people in this world are so lost to good and evil that they are willing to admit that they are villains even to themselves, much less to their enemies. Even people like Hitler, Stalin and Mao cloak their evil deeds in the guise of good. Now, if he'd said "order" and meant "power", that would have rung true. But saying "power" is like saying "I fully acknowledge that I'm a bad guy", and very few people can do that.

The major point. That under-the-skin satellite transponder strikes me as being way beyond our current tech. Sure, you can builde a radio transmitter small enough to be implanted, and make it run off of the body's electrical field. But how much power can you crank through it? I frankly doubt it'd be enough to get a signal up to a satellite even if you were standing on the surface. (BTW, Mission Impossible 2 did this same stunt.) But a transmitter that can reach low earth orbit from under a hundred meters of rock, concrete and steel, in the bowels of Thunder Mountain? Come on...you couldn't built a transmitter to do that if you had a nuclear reactor to charge it.

On the issue of the grave-robbing soldier, it was a little bit predictable, but I definitely found it believable. In any large group of people, you're <i>always</i> going to find one or two who just can't be convinced of how serious a situation is.

Also, I found it interesting how the grave-robbing soldier and Ezekiel were juxtaposed, both coming in through the same route, one story bleeding into another. I wonder if that has any meaning...probably not.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

I'm pretty sure that any society able to keep helicopters and very delicate scientific equipment in working order will be able to make some advances.

Remember, this isn't 2002. This is 2017, 2020.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by channe:
<font color=yellow>I'm pretty sure that any society able to keep helicopters and very delicate scientific equipment in working order will be able to make some advances.

Remember, this isn't 2002. This is 2017, 2020.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Yes, it is 2017, 2020 but the massive research and tech base necessary for technology advancement is gone. The survivers would be working with what was on hand when the Big Die happened.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

UNLESS, of course, Valhalla Sector was prepared from the beginning. The very beginning. Before the Big Death.

Hm... that implies...

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by channe:
<font color=yellow>UNLESS, of course, Valhalla Sector was prepared from the beginning. The very beginning. Before the Big Death.

Hm... that implies...</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

It almost goes without saying the USG does have places like TM and VS (but not line in Jememiah) just in case the unthinkable happens and the human race has to start over.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by gangster:
<font color=yellow>It almost goes without saying the USG does have places like TM and VS (but not line in Jememiah) just in case the unthinkable happens and the human race has to start over.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote> To be honest, I doubt the capability of something like VS to start over. They would lack the necessary diversity, both in technology, society, research and production. In case of unbeatable odds, they would die last. But if any odds would favour new life, they would not be the ones best prepared for that life.

They would be able to hold on. But in case of most forms of disaster, the "ruins" of civil society would be far more adaptive. Simply because they would not wait, not hide in bunkers. They would have to survive the trouble via other means, immediately starting to change their technical, social, scientific and economic basis.

Some were bound to be well placed (either in terms of natural environment, physical isolation, previous contact with similar viruses, or biomedical capacity). It is very likely that someone, somewhere, adapted to the new situation instead of going under. By the time the VS starts preparing to "start over" it becomes apparent that others have no need to start over. Because they never stopped.

You may have noticed that I said - most forms of disaster. By saying this I seek to emphasize that our existence is based on Earth's ecosystem. If any disaster, be it nuclear war or cosmic collision would break the resistance of Earth itself, no shelter and no vaccine would help our kind.

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Originally posted by Lennier:
>>To be honest, I doubt the capability of something like VS to start over. They would lack the necessary diversity, both in technology, society, research and production. In case of unbeatable odds, they would die last. But if any odds would favour new life, they would not be the ones best prepared for that life.<<

Idea behind these survival hideouts (as established back during the Cold War) was to provide a repository of human knowledge (libraries, tools, etc) along with a cadre in various fields who could teach basic skills survivors of a nuclear war would need to start over. I don't know how many of these still exist (if any) but most likely some do, albeit far advanced in mission scope from the initial planning..

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

I must agree with Lennier...I don't see Valhalla Sector as a credible threat to take over the world. Even if they had the natural immunity that everyone else has (for crying out loud, they're running around in environment suits) they've gotta be too small a number to rule even a large segment of the US. They're going to have to have a LOT of outside collaborators to do anything more than rule their own town.

But that doesn't mean that they can't create a lot of trouble while they try...