San Deigo attack

Don't give me the creeps! I *live* in San Diego!

Tammy

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Me, too. But I don't think we'd live long enough to have to worry about if it happens or not.

There were hookers on Bab-5. When Sebastian is walking with Sheridan at the beginning of "Comes the Inquisitor", they glance along the Zocolo and see prostitutes while Sebastian is giving a speech about how some thing never change... the first of many connections to who Sebastian is.

-Tim

I don't remember seeing hookers. I thought he was just looking at the people going about their business in the zocalo.

I don't remember seeing hookers. I thought he was just looking at the people going about their business in the zocalo.

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Those were the hookers. (An unusual number of the "business people" were busty young women in low-cut tops, and the camera lingered on the cleavage of all of them.)

Zack was outraged that the holobrothel used the likenesses of real people for virtual sex - and obviously without their permission. He was especially angry about the disrespect shown Capt. Lochley. (Although Garibaldi was notably more forgiving in this regard. ) That there is prostitution on B5 is all-but spelled out. There are clear hints that the dancers at establishments like the Dark Star are available for more private entertainments, and Talia and Susan shared an unspoken anxiety about what kind the future held for Alissa Beldon if she stayed on the station trying to make her own way.

And yes, GKE, taht GEE was a typo.

Regards,

Joe

My point was that intra-human hostilities are not based on nationality, ethnicitiy, religion, etc. It's only based on ideology.

For example, in the B5 universe, blacks are high ranking officials, on both sides of the law, and freely engage in inter-racial relationships (ie, Talia and that telepath dude who turned into Q).

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By that reasoning we don't fight over ethnicity etc. today. Two of the highest-ranking people in the current administration are black, not to mention numerous military officers, sports heroes, entertainment and news celebrities, etc. People freely engage in interracial relationships and these are routinely depicted in popular entertainment.

It is true that much of the xenophobia depicted on the show is anti-alien, rather than inter-ethnic, and that the cliches we hear today about blacks or foreigners are put in the mouths of anti-alien types on the station, but I haven't seen anything to suggest that EarthGov has utterly eliminated ethnic strife on Earth, or even abolished war between member states. Remember, we don't see an awful lot of what happens on Earth or the other colonies. I think it is dangerous to assume that problems have been solved just because we don't see them focused on in the series.

Regards,

Joe

I haven't seen anything to suggest that EarthGov has utterly eliminated ethnic strife on Earth, or even abolished war between member states.

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I would actually go so far as to say that B5 provides evidence that neither of these specters have been eliminated. While I understand that you most likely meant member states on earth, I would definitely refer to the EarthGov opperations on Mars as a war between member states, especially the notorius bombing campaigns.

Also, remember that B5 introduces a new form of ethnic strife in how telepaths are treated. While the whole psi-corps bit might not be out-right prejudice, we were always given hints about an anti-telepath undertone that existed in the local populace. While I don't remember the exact episode (though I'm pretty sure it's "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father") Bester tells the story of how the Psi Cops once had to track down a telepath-killer because the local authorities refused to.

Lyta told Dr Franklin about Bester using deap scans in his investigations. Probably in the Season 4 episode "The Face of the Enemy". More details are given in the Psi Corps book "Deadly Relations" by J. Gregory Keyes.

Also, remember that B5 introduces a new form of ethnic strife in how telepaths are treated

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I never bought into the notion of telepaths as "just another minority", and frankly I don't think JMS did, either. Fearing telepaths because they are telepaths would not be irrational, as fearing blacks beacause they're blacks, whites because they're whites or Phonecians because they're Phonecians is. There are no meaningful differences between Human populations the justify applying treating members of different biological groups differently. However, if telepaths existed - beings able to read the inner thoughts of others - we'd face a serious social crisis, just like the one posited in the B5 universe. The concept of privacy would almost to exist. Telepaths would be perfect blackmailers, thieves, cheats, con artists, you name it - out of sheer natural ability. And, Human nature being what it is, a heck of a lot of them would chose to use their abilities in this way rather than put up with the hassle of earning an honest living if not controlled in some way or another by the majority.

Actual telepaths would be unlike any "minority" that has ever existed in the history of the Human race. Don't kid yourself that they wouldn't.

Regards,

Joe

Man, I feel stupid- I just watched Inquisitor, and yes, those broads were definitely sex ringers.
I don't count holo-brothels as prostitution, since the "girls" aren't real people. That is exploitation (of the people whose images are used), not prostitution.

By that reasoning we don't fight over ethnicity etc. today.

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I was talking about Earth, not the USA. Plenty of folks sure as hell are fighting, whether open and violently or in more underhanded and sneaky ways, over ethnicity and religion.

In B5, there is nothing that gives one the idea that racism is still a problem. Even religious differences are handled more civily- we see a dispute between two Christian leaders, but it is more comical and good-natured than belligerant.

The conflict between Mars and Earth has absolutely nothing to do with race, religion, etc. It is political.
Yes, of course humans are still fighting each other in B5. But it's over practical differences that are based on people's actions, not race.

And yes, telepaths are unlike any marginalised group Earth has ever experienced, and I would be scared as hell of them, because Lord knows if I could read minds (and possibly effect them), I probably would.

The conflict between Mars and Earth has absolutely nothing to do with race, religion, etc. It is political.

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You think so?

Quote from some season 1 episode:
"Shut up, they are humans too". - "Hell, they don´t think so, why should I?"(followed by a rant about what has to be done is to go in and kill some ungrateful marsies).

And i´ve seen more of this idea that martians are not human, specially in the psi corps trilogy.

But I think the real question that still remains here is .. What's a Phonecian?

That's still not race, religion, ethnicity, etc. What race are Marsians? What religion? "Marsian" isn't a race, it's a geographical background.

That's still not race, religion, ethnicity, etc. What race are Marsians? What religion? "Marsian" isn't a race, it's a geographical background.

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Sounds a bit like "American", when you put it that way...

Even now, though, we tend to make over-generalizations about grouping people based on their geography. For instance, not everyone in the "Arab" Middle East is really an "Arab", historically speaking. But we have a distinct tendency to lump them all together -- because it's easier that way, I suppose.

The other reference to the dancers doing more than just dancing was in Gropos - Lou Welch mentions off the cuff to Garibaldi over the link (when he was with Dodger) that "one of the dancers is missing from the Dark Star", with a wink wink nudge nudge.

-Tim

Derian wrote: *What's a Phonecian?*

Phoenicians were a seafaring confederation of city-states situated along the eastern coastal region of the Mediterranean Sea, of course. They were noted for their commerce and naval capabilities. They were eventually subjugated in the 3rd century B.C. by Alexander the Great. Their cities were located in what are now modern-day Lebanon, Syria and south-eastern Turkey.

Probably more information than you needed, but, there you have it.

What race are Marsians? What religion? "Marsian" isn't a race, it's a geographical background.

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However, Martian is a nationality, which can often mean the same thing as a "race".

Without getting too deep into history/politics/touchy-subjects, keep in mind that most of the "German People" thought of themselves as "Prussians" in 1800, and by 1900 that was a different story. Peoples who reffered to themselves as "British" in 1700 became "American" in 1800. Similarly, the people on Mars probably began to think of themselves as "Martians" despite sharing no real common background. At a certain point/level of development, Mars itself would be enough of a background. Given the calls for Martian independence in B5, I think we're meant to believe they've reached that point.

As for telepaths not being a new "ethnic" group. I don't know. On the one hand, I definitely agree with you, it would create a whole series of social problems for society to deal with.

On the other hand, the world has probably already dealt with events that are on-par with the emergence of telepaths. I can think of nuclear weapons as an example off-hand.

While a telepath would be the perfect gambler/blackmailer/spy/etc. I think that after a surprisingly short period of time institutions would appear to deal with the problem, and before the emergence of said institutions, the telepaths would (to some extent) police themselves.

I think of it this way. In 1950, the US could have used atomics to level any country on the planet. Infact, during the Korean war, some in the military suggested it, but others opposed them. Perhaps I'm a little too optomistic here, but given the lack of a nuclear holocaust in the last 5 decades, I think humanity's more good-natured than we like to believe.

If a telepath made a bid for power, and no institution existed to stop the telepath, I think that other telepaths would stand in the way. Sure, this wouldn't be the case universally, but I think it would happen more-often than not. After all, there are already so many ways for dictators to come to power, it's almost remarkable the world isn't a very different place. While some people would be oppressed by a telepathic minority, I think that other telepaths would actually protect their less-abled friends elsewhere.

While it would be a social crisis if telepaths existed, and it would be rational to create legal means of preventing telepaths from abusing their powers, fear of all telepaths because of what they MIGHT do is irrational, as is the hatred of all telepaths for their inate, unchosen abilities. This irrational hatred and fear of teeps was a major, continuing plot point of B5. Such irrational hatred and fear lead to thoroughly evil means of dealing with the problem, one being the facistic oppression of the Psi Corps, and another Eggars' biowarfare attempt. While it is true that teeps "aren't just another minority group," it seems clear to me that JMS was portraying the prejudice against them as wrong, even though they were truly different. If a setting like B5 could actually be real, surely there would be races superior to us in various ways, such as strength, and intellect. These differences still would not justify fear, hatred, and prejudice against them, and it wouldn't justify it against teeps either.