Dollhouse

Re: New Joss Whedon show

vacantlook said:

I had an interesting thought last night; what if Dominic was a double-mole. It could be interesting if his ultimate employer wasn't the NSA but someone who had him be a mole within the NSA. Then the NSA turned around and had him be a mole for them within the Dollhouse.

If he truly was the one and only sending messages to Paul through Echo and November to help Paul discover more about the Dollhouse, then it seems a bit weird for his goal to be to keep the Dollhouse from getting out of control. I hope there's a bit more to this that hasn't been revealed yet because it just doesn't quite match up as is.

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Can you imagine the shock if Topher himself is a mole, maybe even programmed? But, then, if the series really is only gonna get the first 13 episodes, that's far too deep a plot point to cover.

Re: New Joss Whedon show

vacantlook said:

I hope there's a bit more to this that hasn't been revealed yet because it just doesn't quite match up as is.

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Oh, I think you can count on that!

Re: New Joss Whedon show

After having read this over at Whedonesque about the 13th episode that Fox isn't going to show, I can understand more why they don't want to.

[spoiler="Epitaph One", the 13th episode that Fox isn't going to show]I haven't read the article that the Whedonesque page links to, just the comments about it, but if I understand it all correctly, "Epitaph One" is set decades in the future and includes none of the cast of Dollhouse.

It's probably interesting, and I do want to see it, but I can understand Fox not wanting to end the season with an episode that has none of the cast of the show in it.[/spoiler]

Re: New Joss Whedon show

vacantlook said:

After having read this over at Whedonesque about the 13th episode that Fox isn't going to show, I can understand more why they don't want to.

[spoiler="Epitaph One", the 13th episode that Fox isn't going to show]I haven't read the article that the Whedonesque page links to, just the comments about it, but if I understand it all correctly, "Epitaph One" is set decades in the future and includes none of the cast of Dollhouse.

It's probably interesting, and I do want to see it, but I can understand Fox not wanting to end the season with an episode that has none of the cast of the show in it.[/spoiler]

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So...We're only going to get 3 more episodes then? (Providing of course they come back in two weeks as the previews promised). If that's it, and it is indeed cancelled, has anyone heard if we get any kind of closure from the arc?

This is really a bummer, cancelled before even 10 episodes air, and yet, the 90210 retread is going strong. <Sigh>

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Sindatur said:

So...We're only going to get 3 more episodes then? (Providing of course they come back in two weeks as the previews promised). If that's it, and it is indeed cancelled, has anyone heard if we get any kind of closure from the arc?

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This Whedonesque page talks about the whole big crazy over Fox's not broadcasting "Epitaph One". Fox hasn't cancelled Dollhouse, yet at least. Fox is apparently arguing that it had ordered 13 episode of the show but the production company made 14 episodes. Fox is apparently counting the pilot episode that the production company scrapped way back at the beginning as one of those 14.

Here's what Tim Minear posted about it:

Okay. So maybe I can help clarify this somewhat. Because we scrapped the original pilot -- and in fact cannibalized some of its parts for other eps -- we really ended up with 12 episodes. But the studio makes DVD and other deals based on the original 13 number. So we created a standalone kind of coda episode. Which is the mythical new episode 13. The network had already paid for 13 episodes, and this included the one they agreed to let us scrap for parts. It does not include the one we made to bring the number back up to 13 for the studio side and its obligations. We always knew it would be for the DVD for sure, but we also think Fox should air it because it’s awesome.

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As for ratings, from what I've read the regular ol' ratings for Dollhouse haven't been stellar, but the "new media" numbers have been good. "New media" being people getting the episodes off of iTunes and Hulu and the like. The first season of Dollhouse is also already available on amazon.com for pre-purchase, so I think Fox will also probably try to factor in pre-purchase demand into their deliberations as to Dollhouse's future.

Re: New Joss Whedon show

vacantlook said:

This Whedonesque page talks about the whole big crazy over Fox's not broadcasting "Epitaph One". Fox hasn't cancelled Dollhouse, yet at least. Fox is apparently arguing that it had ordered 13 episode of the show but the production company made 14 episodes. Fox is apparently counting the pilot episode that the production company scrapped way back at the beginning as one of those 14.

Here's what Tim Minear posted about it:



As for ratings, from what I've read the regular ol' ratings for Dollhouse haven't been stellar, but the "new media" numbers have been good. "New media" being people getting the episodes off of iTunes and Hulu and the like. The first season of Dollhouse is also already available on amazon.com for pre-purchase, so I think Fox will also probably try to factor in pre-purchase demand into their deliberations as to Dollhouse's future.

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Well that's hopeful news. A post a page or two back suggested it was very likely to get cancelled, and then talk of the 13th episode not being aired, had me feeling it was all but declared.

TV really needs to change their ratings gathering info, what with "On Demand", Hulu, iTunes, Amazon, Tivo'ed etc, etc methods of viewing. I'm glad to hear the nails aren't being hammered into the coffin just yet, the arc is really getting good, IMHO. Plus, I already hate Jennifer Love Hewitt for having a several years succesful series "Ghost Whisperer" that is basically a rip off of Tru Calling (Also a FOX Show). To have Eliza Dushku lose another show to her (DH and GW both airing at 9pm Fridays in my area) would be too much to take.

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Sindatur said:

TV really needs to change their ratings gathering info, what with "On Demand", Hulu, iTunes, Amazon, Tivo'ed etc, etc methods of viewing.

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Problem is, with the exception of Tivo and other DVRs (which are now included in the ratings under certain circumstances including being within a certain time of original airing), none of those other methods have anything to do with the purpose of the ratings, which is to establish audience measurements and demographics for use in selling advertising in the middle of the shows. However many other people watch the programming in other formats, if they're not seeing the ads they don't matter towards that purpose.

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Yea Ive heard the same thing. Fox BROADCASTING COMPANY could likely care less what the iTunes, Hulu, and DVR numbers are, because they make no money off of them. They make money selling ads during airtime, and DVR numbers mean those are people not watching commercials so their customers (the advertising companies) won't really count them.

Its nice to know, just dont see what a big factor that is really...

Re: New Joss Whedon show

While it's true that those other methods don't sell ads, they should infuluence projections for DVD set sales. A show not quite up to snuff in ratings for ad revenues, may very well be worth continuing in anticipation DVD set revenues, Firefly for example. Additionally, a longer set of episodes could mean syndication and International Sales.

Are you sure the network gets nothing for iTunes or Amazon (or on Demand)? I swear I remember ABC getting a chunk from LOST?

Heroes is On Demand for $0.99 an episode. I can't believe NBC is allowing that when so many other networks are showing their series for free "On Demand" if they aren't getting a cut

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Sindatur said:

Are you sure the network gets nothing for iTunes or Amazon (or on Demand)? I swear I remember ABC getting a chunk from LOST?

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I was going to ask similarly about Hulu. I don't know much at all about it, but I have seen the Hulu advertisements featuring Eliza Dushku. I just looked up Hulu on wikipedia, and I would think that Fox gets some level of money from it. It says Hulu is commercial-supported and was created as joint venture between NBC and Fox.

Re: New Joss Whedon show

vacantlook said:

I was going to ask similarly about Hulu. I don't know much at all about it, but I have seen the Hulu advertisements featuring Eliza Dushku. I just looked up Hulu on wikipedia, and I would think that Fox gets some level of money from it. It says Hulu is commercial-supported and was created as joint venture between NBC and Fox.

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And lets not forget the need to account for Network Site streaming of episodes (not sure if Fox does this, but, for the debate in general) which generally include the commercials, and some pretty much force you to watch, similar to DVDs that won't boot straight to the Menu (or respond to the Menu button), you have to shuck and Jive through the previews to get to the menu without watching them.

Again, all of these alternative viewing methods, suggest that if the show is properly plotted and ends with a resolution, there is DVD set and Syndication/Foreign Market revenue potential, So if you choose to cancel a series, and you have an "On the bubble of being cancelled" audience size, you ought to think about making a few more episodes to properly end it, because it can mean alot in "After Sales Revenue".

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Sindatur said:

While it's true that those other methods don't sell ads, they should infuluence projections for DVD set sales.

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Once again, not relevant to the Broadcasting company. Fox TV doesn't see a freakin dime of DVD sales. They just don't care. The production houses that sell the TV show to the networks are the ones who get the DVD revenue.

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Recoil said:

Once again, not relevant to the Broadcasting company. Fox TV doesn't see a freakin dime of DVD sales. They just don't care. The production houses that sell the TV show to the networks are the ones who get the DVD revenue.

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They get the revenue for selling broadcast rights, though

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Recoil said:

Once again, not relevant to the Broadcasting company. Fox TV doesn't see a freakin dime of DVD sales. They just don't care. The production houses that sell the TV show to the networks are the ones who get the DVD revenue.

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Quite frequently these days, the production houses are owned by the same parent companies as the networks that air the shows. And Hulu is largely owned by the parent companies of the NBC and Fox networks.

But that's separate from the issue of the ratings, which is what I was addressing. Anything other than the network broadcast with advertising reasonably intact is not and should not be included in the TV ratings, from Nielsen or any other source.

There are ways to measure the audience of online viewing for separate ad sales, pay-per-view revenue is easy to track, and they can estimate what a DVD release is likely to earn, so these are certainly additional factors in determining a show's fate, especially when there's the common network/studio ownership. But so far, these additional elements are far less important than the broadcast revenues.

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Here's hoping.

Joss, speaking at an appearance yesterday, said:

We also talked about next season, they called me specifically to say we've been hearing you sound a little despondent, being very clear about this, the show is not cancelled. The numbers have been soft, but the demographic is wonderful. DVR is great, they [FOX] are big fans of the show and they're waiting to see what happens, so now I've gone from a place that's sort of ehhhhhh, they don't even care, no one loves me, to a place of - God, I can't believe I'm saying this...hope.

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Re: New Joss Whedon show

Also, here's Eliza Dushku talking about it all.

"There've been some changes inside Fox I don't know if you're aware of," Dushku said. "I think Friday nights were a difficult night. Now we have Prison Break coming in, and we've been keeping our audience. It's not just a Nielsen world anymore. They factor in DVR. They factor in iTunes and Hulu, and we seem to have a pretty rich, pretty strong fan base. People are really getting into the show and [creating good] word of mouth, and the shows are getting more and more complicated and twisted. I feel like people are talking about it even more, and hopefully that gets back to the folks at Fox."

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Re: New Joss Whedon show

WooHoo, thanks VL, you're my hero

Re: New Joss Whedon show

It's the only fictional series that has a place on my DVR...

Re: New Joss Whedon show

Ok, I need some help.

I missed tonight's episode due to familial circumstances (much to my very significant annoyance), and I need a question answered by those who watched tonight's episode, if you please. Did anything really significant happen tonight that I would need to know about before next week's first part of the big two-episode finale begins?

I have no means by which I can watch tonight's episode (thanks to having a super-slow internet speed). I ask, is there anything -- without telling me what it is -- that I would've gotten out of tonight's episode that is mandatory for the two final episodes to come that I should know before watching them? I'm trying to decide if I should watch next week, without having seen tonight's episode, or if I should avoid next week and the week thereafter and just catch it all on DVD when it's released.

Re: New Joss Whedon show

There will be spoilers below,



So yesterday's episode was a perfect example of the mediocrity I see in this show, and it all boils down to Joss' failed attempts at moralizing. He tries to play Adelle's friends plight as a sympathetic one, but when you are cheating death by taking over the body of an unwilling woman I don't find you or your plight sympathetic. The final scene where Adelle cries while holding Echo/friends hand was especially bad, because why do I care if a pimp is crying, go and sell another one of your whores, that will make you happy. Then there is Topher, a character that is annoying, not the least bit funny, and once again used by Joss as some sort of morality play. Oh, feel for Topher, he's all alone on his birthday. But, ignore the fact that he mindrapes innocent men and women every day and gets a kick out of it, also ignore the fact that he's all alone on his birthday because he's such a creep. Hey, Langton, keep on pining for Echo, she's got a new pimp now, you're in the clear buddy!

But, this is balanced out by the plight of the dolls themselves where the show does at least keep up the idea that they have no choice over what is happening to them and therefore they are sympathetic characters. Plus, I really love where they are going with Ballard's character, he's the only honest one on the whole show. He knows he's a creep and unhinged, he realizes he's crossed that line and is no better than anyone who works at the dollhouse or contracts from the Dollhouse. It's maddening that this show can present a complex character like Ballard and nail him completely, but get so much else wrong. And before everyone says if you don't like it then don't watch it, I do love certain aspects of it and that's what makes it so maddening, there is potential there but Joss and Co. keep screwing it all up in major areas while getting other ones completely right.