Alternate timelines

If Sinclair had stayed on as Commander of B5 then Sheridan would have come in as Captain, in other words as his commanding officer.

Then the two of them would have been falling over each other on B5, rather a comedown for Michael OHare, I should think.

If Sinclair had been the one to go to Z'Ha'Dum then he couldn't have also been Valen and go back in time because he would have died at Z. If Sheridan had been the one to go to Z'Ha'Dum then the story could have continued as it did. He would have led the war against the Shadows and Sinclair would have remained on B5, doing what?

JMS said on several occasions that Sheridan was always part of the story, the only question was when to bring him aboard. He, Sinclair and Delenn formed the One.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by solaris5:
Interesting....
Well, I don't know if I'll like it, but I am definitely not the type that enjoys wizards and dragons and stuff, so that's probably why I lost interest in The Hobbit.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sol, you should really try to read it through. I had to read it four or five years ago for school and was prepared to hate it. It's actually quite good, and remains one of my favorite books.



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"Mr. Bester."
"Captain Sheridan."
"Get the hell out of my chair!"
- John J. Sheridan and Alfred Bester

With all this talk about The Hobbit, I think I should re-read it. It's been a good few years since I last did that.

Damn, I loved that book as a kid. It was truly Magical. I think I can say with certainty that it changed certain things in my world-view forever.

Of course, I was five then.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge

Hey, remember that we're talking about the kid who had devoured the whole Three Musketeers saga - the first book, 20 Years Later and the 10 Years Later (or whatever those horribly thick sequels are called in English) trilogy - by the tender age of six.

I used to be asked to read for other kids in kindergarten when the teachers were busy.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galahad:
To involve Sinclair, Catherine Sakai would probably have been wasted in the "Anna Sheridan" way of thinking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope. In the series treatment from 1988, preliminary versions of both the "Anna" thread and the "Sakai" thread exist side by side (the latter being attached to the second in command), so the two had different purposes in the arc.

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Evil alien at large! Looking for cities to pillage and women to abduct! Pre-jumptech planets preferred. (Run your own country? Ask for my special collaborator package, with extensive health coverage and a life-time personal assistant!)

drakh@spamcop.net

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jomar:
.
If Sinclair had been the one to go to Z'Ha'Dum then he couldn't have also been Valen and go back in time because he would have died at Z.

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Sinclair was always suppose to be Valen and he was probably the one to go to Z'ha'dum and get resurrected by Lorien except he wouldn;t get a twenty year limit or he would get his twenty year life extended by the chrysalis when he becomes a minbari.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
JMS said on several occasions that Sheridan was always part of the story, the only question was when to bring him aboard. He, Sinclair and Delenn formed the One.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I believe Valen, Delenn and Sinclair formed the one and JMS only changed it when he was forced to replace Sinclair.

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Just my two cents: let us remember "Babylon Squared". Unless I'm mistaken it was the 18th episode produced and the 20th episode aired.

What do we see? A space station traveling back in time, an alien called Zathras who states that Sinclair is "not the One". And the one who is an older Sinclair. And a Delenn whose age we are unable to determine, but who speaks of others waiting. Here is another short description from the Lurker's guide.

The station continues to break apart, and as it does so, The One returns to the station to retrieve Zathras. Sinclair and Garibaldi escape in their ship just as the distortion field goes off the scale and Babylon 4 begins to disappear again. The One walks out of a chamber into another room. "Time distortion repaired," intones a computer voice. "Present time atmosphere now breathable."

The One removes his helmet, revealing an older, and somewhat injured Sinclair. "I tried," the older Sinclair says. "I tried to warn them. But it all happened...just the way I remember it." A hand in a red dress reaches up an touches him on the shoulder. "I know," says a woman's exotic voice, a voice that sounds suspiciously like Delenn's. "It's time. We have to go. They're waiting for us." Sinclair and the woman leave.

To me, this leaves only two main possibilities: either Sinclair went back in time sooner, after some adjusting to the Minbari way of life as an ambassador (War Without End) and aged due to the time distortion (this is suggested by the fighter pilot's death due to time distortion), leaving a space open for a new station commander (Sheridan)...

...or Sinclair went back in time after some dacades, in which he may have possibly aged as much as he seemed to have aged (he looks as if he would be 80) and possibly become quite close with Delenn.

One way of finding the answer would be to determine Delenn's age, which is unfortunately impossible. Her voice gives no hints and we see only her hand... not enough to even determine if she is Minbari or not.

But if all this happened in the 18th episode of Season 1, we may consider Sinclair's final fate quite planned. Add to this the various speculations about Valen's soul and there can be little doubt as to where Valen came from. The only question left open is when Valen departed from his real time, and what happened before it.

We can see various "guns hanging on the wall", some pointed at one and some at the other possibility. Some of both sets went off before Sinclair's fate became clear. The result: puzzled the Vorlons are, puzzled they have always been.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 17, 2001).]

Mr. Bester ... I am a bit confused by some of your statements. First you say, "Sinclair was always suppose to be Valen" followed by, "No I believe Valen, Delenn and Sinclair formed the one". Since Valen = Sinclair how can they be two separate things in your next statement?

You also say that JMS was "forced" to replace Sinclair which is entirely not true. Did you read the numerous JMS quotes A_Ranger posted above? In particular, the one where JMS says, "Sheridan wasn't a 'backup' for Sinclair, he was brought in specifically because I needed somene who could and would do things in a different way, and had a different arc. If it was going to track 1-to-1 you wouldn't *need* a new character"

Sinclair was always intended to leave/disappear soon after season 2 began. It was just a question of -when-. After O'Hare and JMS talked they -agreed- that it would be best to move the timing of his departure up so O'Hare could move on to other things without having his B5 role hanging on by a string.

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Monica Hübinette | Seattle, WA | Send a Warm Fuzzy!
They knocked down two tall towers. Graft now their echo onto your spine. Become girders and glass, stone and steel, so that when the world sees you, it sees them. And stand tall. Stand tall. --JMS (Amazing Spider-Man #36)

Well I for one would love to have seen Micheal O'Hare stay on as Sinclair no matter if the storyline stayed the same or not he's a wonderful actor .

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These time travel shows mix me up all the time. 12 monkeys, terminator and this... how was the first time done? This obviously shows it after sinclair has already gone back once before. How did it work the first time? Or is there even a first time?

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Sinclair said:

"I will go back because I have always gone back. And I always will."

That's the best we can do.
Time Travel is a Paradox and, as everyone knows, Paradoxes are great for giving you metaphysical hangovers.
But they aren't worth much for anything else.

That's why JMS said he was going to quit after only ONE.
One is dramatic. Two or more are silly and self defeating.

It's like Casting GOD. Even if you can afford her, there is no "story" any more because you always Know who's going to win.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lyta:
Mr. Bester ... I am a bit confused by some of your statements. First you say, "Sinclair was always suppose to be Valen" followed by, "No I believe Valen, Delenn and Sinclair formed the one". Since Valen = Sinclair how can they be two separate things in your next statement?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well after the airing of Babylon Squared someone asked JMS if the One was Sinclair and Delenn and JMS said we were missing a third piece. The One in Babylon 5 is defined as people who build the past, present and future. Valen built the past, Delenn the present and Sheridan the future. Well most of the stuff Sheridan did was probably what Sinclair was going to do so I think pre-season 2, Sinclair builds the future and as Valen builds the past.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>You also say that JMS was "forced" to replace Sinclair which is entirely not true. Did you read the numerous JMS quotes A_Ranger posted above? In particular, the one where JMS says, "Sheridan wasn't a 'backup' for Sinclair, he was brought in specifically because I needed somene who could and would do things in a different way, and had a different arc. If it was going to track 1-to-1 you wouldn't *need* a new character" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all JMS was forced to replace Sinclair by PTEN who didn't like O'Hare. And frankly I don't see any major differences in their story arc. Sinclair was probably going to Z'Ha'Dum, establish the IA and telling the First Ones to go away. The one that might not have been done by Sinclair was liberating Earth. The only major difference was their character.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Sinclair was always intended to leave/disappear soon after season 2 began. It was just a question of -when-. After O'Hare and JMS talked they -agreed- that it would be best to move the timing of his departure up so O'Hare could move on to other things without having his B5 role hanging on by a string.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really doubt that since JMS said Babylon 5 was centered on the character of Jeffrey Sinclair. If Sinclair was to disappear then I don't think he would have said that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jnk5y:
These time travel shows mix me up all the time. 12 monkeys, terminator and this... how was the first time done? This obviously shows it after sinclair has already gone back once before. How did it work the first time? Or is there even a first time?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There was never a first time. It was just there. Try reading "All you Zombies" by Heinlin, it explains a lot of this stuff. IMHO the unbroken loop is the best form of time traveling since it can't be subject to abuse cuz you can never alter the past.



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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> First of all JMS was forced to replace Sinclair by PTEN who didn't like O'Hare. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JMS has said Over and Over that the rumor you just quoted is a piece of Horseshit.

It was started by some moron who makes up whatever he doesn't know.
The sort whose motto is "If you can't say anything Bad, make up something."
PTEN by that time didn't have much influence. Warner was in charge.
And Warner didn't have anything to do with it either.

I've met both JMS and Michael O'Hare.
They both agree: It was a mutual decision because they both thought that having Sinclair leave Then rather than later would make for a better Story.
Either they are both lying, or their version is what happened. Your choice.

O'Hare had offers to return to Broadway because he Knew Sinclair would be leaving somewhere during the second season, so had put out feelers.
He and JMS talked about When would be the best time to actually make the cut.
Being Friends, they discussed it from a Story perspective.
JMS said that a couple of the specific things that happened in the story were actually O'Hare's idea. He just didn't say which ones.

Best Truth Detector:
If they had not still been friends, Sinclair would not have been "back" for "War Without End".
O'Hare would have just been "too busy" and JMS would have had to find some other way to send Valen back in time.




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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

Five? I think I was still reading See Spot Run at that age.

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"Mr. Bester."
"Captain Sheridan."
"Get the hell out of my chair!"
- John J. Sheridan and Alfred Bester

So what you are saying is that it always happens like this? That would explain all the "you have always been here" and "i have always been here" babbling from kosh. But what about what about the transmition from babylon 5 in the alternate future?
With terminator they sent back a robot to stop the leader from being born. the robot helped another company produce robots before the original company was able to. In part 2 they blow up the 2nd company but unfortunately no one realizes that the original company will eventually develop the robot. So doesn't there have to be a first time? As in there is only one present and you can go into the past but never into the future past the present.

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