Episode Judging: The Wrong Side of Popular Opinion

I think the Ivanova sex scene is hillarious, but, it is embarrassing when someone who doesn't know B5 walks into the room, and looks at you disdainfully as if to say, "this is the show you rave so much about"

I know I've always been against popular opinion by liking 'Grail' and 'River of Souls', but thinking 'Thirdspace' is the weakest of the movies.

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I've always liked "Grail." As far as "Thirdspace" and "The River of Souls" goes, I'm close to agreeing with you there, too. Initially, I liked "Thirdspace" better, but "The River of Souls" is growing on me (as Lochley is growing on me), and "Thirdspace" is waning. Guess, I just had to get used to her. <shrug> Also, I very much like Ian McShane, and the "atmosphere" in "The River of Souls."

Jack wanted to find someone who would prevail.

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I disagree; and I think Delenn hit it on the head in realizing Jack's character/personality traits during the interrogation. The Vorlon's use of Jack was to find someone who would prevail, but Jack's own personal stake in it was to break whomever the Vorlons set him on. He wanted to prove to everyone he was given the opportunity to do so that they weren't special and chosen just like he was eventually shown to not be chosen himself in his holy cause. He existed to break people of their belief that they existed for a reason and saw his life as being for nothing but that. And he hoped that with finding Delenn and Sheridan to be what the Vorlons wanted that perhaps the Vorlons would finally let him die since that was all he was anymore.

I think you're both right. Yes, as a matter of pride and ego, he "wanted" to break everyone the Vorlons threw at him. However, I think he really was tired of living, if you can call what he did living. He also seemed very happy that Delenn proved "worthy."

Eyes - Excellent episode - one of my faves - and that colonal - what a nutter.

Infection - again one of my faves.

Passing through Gethsemene - MY FAVE EPISODE.

I cannot understand why everyone hates Byron myself.
The telepath arc was I suppose to set up the Lyta 'WEAPON' thing. I thought her (Pat Tallmans) performance of Lyta as Byron and his cronies torched themselves was wonderful.

Kinda wanted to give her a big hug.


However...

Acts of Sacrifice - pants.

Into the Fire - ( I am sorry to say this but...) rubbish.


As far as the Movies - River of Souls is my Fave.

Thirdspace is just poor.

On a separate note, does anybody have any strong feelings about Crusade and its episodes? I recently dredged them up on VHS, and watched a few for the first time in at least 3 years. With the benefit of hindsight, I was struck by a couple of things: firstly that it seemed very much a completely different and alien series from B5, much more so than I remembered, and secondly that I wasn't sure I liked it at all.. Even allowing for all the studio interference, it seems very patchy, and produced a number of episodes that are just no fun at all to watch (even downright painful to watch)..

I only understood some of the potential of the series after I read about what was in some of the scripts that would have been in future episodes.


Thirdspace: I haven't seen it in ages. Should be revisiting it soon.

Jack wanted to find someone who would prevail.

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I disagree; and I think Delenn hit it on the head in realizing Jack's character/personality traits during the interrogation.

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That's what he was leading her to believe, yes, that he was trying to prove that they weren't special or chosen, but what he was really trying to do was to elicit the right response from Sheridan and Delenn. Once he got that, we see how fast he changed.

The Vorlon's use of Jack was to find someone who would prevail,

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True.

...but Jack's own personal stake in it was to break whomever the Vorlons set him on. He wanted to prove to everyone he was given the opportunity to do so that they weren't special and chosen just like he was eventually shown to not be chosen himself in his holy cause. He existed to break people of their belief that they existed for a reason and saw his life as being for nothing but that.

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No, he was a test that he hoped somebody would pass. Thus far, he'd always been disappointed. He wanted to find the right people.

And he hoped that with finding Delenn and Sheridan to be what the Vorlons wanted that perhaps the Vorlons would finally let him die since that was all he was anymore.

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Right, he hoped that they would pass his test, and that his job would be over and that the Vorlons would let him die (rest).

On a separate note, does anybody have any strong feelings about Crusade and its episodes? I recently dredged them up on VHS, and watched a few for the first time in at least 3 years. With the benefit of hindsight, I was struck by a couple of things: firstly that it seemed very much a completely different and alien series from B5, much more so than I remembered,

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True, and that's partly contributed by the music.

...and secondly that I wasn't sure I liked it at all.. Even allowing for all the studio interference, it seems very patchy, and produced a number of episodes that are just no fun at all to watch (even downright painful to watch)..

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Having watched all of the Crusade episodes many, many times over the past five years, I can say that like them more and more with each viewing. There is no episode that I dislike completely.* They all have their good points. The main problem with the existing 13 episodes are the holes that are left by the 10 episodes that never got filmed. If we had one full season, or a contiguous 13, you'd be singing a different tune.

Which episodes did you find "no fun at all to watch (even downright painful to watch)" ? "Visitors from Down the Street" ? There, I focus on the dialogue. "Ruling from the Tomb" ? There, I focus on the character interactions, and the dialogue of our regular characters.




*There is no Crusade episode that I dislike as much as B5's "Believers."

True, and that's partly contributed by the music.

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The effects as well - in B5 the effects are usually either peripheral and unobtrusive background stuff, or (as in Severed Dreams), they help to carry the emotional content of the narative. In either case they're used sparingly, and don't intersect too much with the 'real' world inhabited by the actors. Crusade is crammed with effects of variable quality, many of which look distinctly ropey these days, and it's distracting.

Which episodes did you find "no fun at all to watch (even downright painful to watch)

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Actually, most of them, both before and after the split. The X-Files parody is overdone and unnecessary. The Path of Sorrows doesn't work dramatically, being an episode built entirely around flashback with nothing of interest happening in the present. The 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' episode is unintentionally funny. War Zone is cheesy beyond belief. Both Peter and Edward Woodward struggle with over-worthy dialogue in The Long Road. The episode set on B5 features the worst alien race in any TV series, ever. And Racing the Night resembles a Playstation game..

It's not that I don't think Crusade wouldn't have found its feet eventually, without TNT's interference, because it had some tremendous characters and potential. It just didn't seem to be working at all well as a dramatic series up to that point..

I actually like the character of Byron and have never understood the anmiosty toward him or outright hatred in others.
As for infection and the war prayer I love both .So I am slightly different in when i give both this eps an A.
Ivanovas sex scene is too painful to watch.

Re: Episode Judging: The Wrong Side of Popular Opi

I think the Ivanova sex scene is hillarious, but, it is embarrassing when someone who doesn't know B5 walks into the room, and looks at you disdainfully as if to say, "this is the show you rave so much about"

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I think that describes a lot of the humor in B5 that "missed the mark" in many people's opinion. To ME what you typed really says "I am a fan of the show, not that particular scene." You find it funny because you are into the show and into the characters, but put it on its own merits, and its a truly awful scene that makes you really REALLY cringe.

If you are embarrassed about watching a scene when a friend comes in, as you say, then that speaks to how bad it really is.

Not that I fault you, a lot of people are that way. If you become a fan of a show due to its overall merits, you tend to look in even its flaws and not really see them. I just can't seperate those things. I see that scene as bad and always will. (although I also do like the characters knowing look back at her).

As for me....

A lot of people dis River of Souls. I watched it when I bought the movie DVD, and was really surprised at how much I liked it. I like it a lot better than Thirdspace, for many reasons.

I liked Grey 17 and TKO, episodes many dislike and call the worst of the series.

I do enjoy TKO for the Ivanova plot and characterization...but I really like the Mutai plot as well, and its not because of the foreshadowing for Garibaldi, although that is cool. There is something about that Walker Smith plot that REALLY speaks to not just a human attitude and approach to things...but an AMERICAN one as well.

Here is a guy who goes around calling aliens Snakeheads. Talks about busting them up, using their pathetic competition to help him get into the "big time" and get a "real" fight back home, a shot at the title. ALL of that speaks to human and in some ways, American arrogance. Before he even meets them he is looking down at the Mutai. Their fight is a joke to him and a stepping stone for what he wants, nothing more. He has ZERO appreciation for what other cultures hold dear and respect.

The aliens react to this. The guy who tries to kill him later flat out says how humans have no place because we look down upon them, and tells us to go back where we came from. Humans are the little punks on the street in B5. We were given space travel from someone else, beat down the Dilgar, now we think we own the place. Nothing speaks better to that point than this episode.

All that being said...by the end of the episode Walker Smith TRULY finds respect not just for his opponent, but for the Mutai as well, and then in turn respect him and open things up to humans (figuratively and literally). This sort of shows how B5 will end up, with humans EARNING the respect of others while learning to respect the other races themselves.

I think it was a great episode which really spoke to human (and American) nature in many ways. It drew so many parallels not only to real life, but to other things going on prior and in the future of the B5 universe.

I think this might be the most underrated episode of the series.

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I think the Ivanova sex scene is hilarious! It's one of the best damn scenes of all of season 2!

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Recoil, thanks for your fine defense of the Mutai plot, with which I agree completely.

About Ivanova's "sex scene" ... it IS painful to watch, and embarassing, but that IS completely appropriate to the situation. She isn't supposed to be a comedy writer, but she does intend to do something confoundingly stupid, and she does!

Re: Episode Judging: The Wrong Side of Popular Opi

I do enjoy TKO for the Ivanova plot and characterization...but I really like the Mutai plot as well, and its not because of the foreshadowing for Garibaldi, although that is cool. There is something about that Walker Smith plot that REALLY speaks to not just a human attitude and approach to things...but an AMERICAN one as well.

Here is a guy who goes around calling aliens Snakeheads. Talks about busting them up, using their pathetic competition to help him get into the "big time" and get a "real" fight back home, a shot at the title. ALL of that speaks to human and in some ways, American arrogance. Before he even meets them he is looking down at the Mutai. Their fight is a joke to him and a stepping stone for what he wants, nothing more. He has ZERO appreciation for what other cultures hold dear and respect.

The aliens react to this. The guy who tries to kill him later flat out says how humans have no place because we look down upon them, and tells us to go back where we came from. Humans are the little punks on the street in B5. We were given space travel from someone else, beat down the Dilgar, now we think we own the place. Nothing speaks better to that point than this episode.

All that being said...by the end of the episode Walker Smith TRULY finds respect not just for his opponent, but for the Mutai as well, and then in turn respect him and open things up to humans (figuratively and literally). This sort of shows how B5 will end up, with humans EARNING the respect of others while learning to respect the other races themselves.

I think it was a great episode which really spoke to human (and American) nature in many ways. It drew so many parallels not only to real life, but to other things going on prior and in the future of the B5 universe.

I think this might be the most underrated episode of the series.



Another person who enjoys TKO as much as I do .No episode at least IMHO is too awful or to good not to find some parrallel in real life.

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That was a great defense of the episode. Maybe I'll try to give it some more respect.

I think the reason it rubs me the wrong way is because it feels too much like a Van Damme flick, and we used to sit around and make fun of those all the time back in the day (tournament fight, training montages, ham acting, bullshit ancient rituals, slow motion, culture clash, etc).

True, and that's partly contributed by the music.

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The effects as well - in B5 the effects are usually either peripheral and unobtrusive background stuff, or (as in Severed Dreams), they help to carry the emotional content of the narative. In either case they're used sparingly, and don't intersect too much with the 'real' world inhabited by the actors. Crusade is crammed with effects of variable quality, many of which look distinctly ropey these days, and it's distracting.

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For the most part, I don't find the Crusade effects to be very poor in quality or distracting. Then again, it may be due to my lack of exposure to the latest effects laden, movies and sci-fi TV shows, and the fact that I haven't played computer games for the past 5 or 6 years.

Which episodes did you find "no fun at all to watch (even downright painful to watch)

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Actually, most of them, both before and after the split. The X-Files parody is overdone and unnecessary.

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In your opinion. I thought it came off well, except for the alien headgear. As for being "unnecessary," perhaps you're thinking that every episode should have been in active pursuit of a cure to the plague, and that we had far too many unnecessary side-trips in the filmed 13 episodes?

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[*]"Racing the Night" - in pursuit of the cure. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"The Needs of Earth" - in pursuit of the cure. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"The Memory of War" - in pursuit of the cure. Antivirus screen discovered.
[*]"The Long Road" - in pursuit of the cure. Natural antiviral agen discovered.
[*]"Visitors from Down the Street" - side trip.
[*]"The Well of Forever" - in pursuit of the cure. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"Each Night I Dream of Home" - in pursuit of the cure. Nature of the virus discovered.
[*]"Patterns of the Soul" - side trip. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"The Path of Sorrows" - in pursuit of the cure. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"Ruling from the Tomb" - in pursuit of the cure. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"The Rules of the Game" - in pursuit of the cure. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"War Zone" - in pursuit of the cure. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"Appearances and Other Deceits" - in pursuit of the cure. Nothing medically useful discovered.
[*]"Value Judgements" - in pursuit of the cure. Powerful pain killer discovered.
[*]"To the Ends of the Earth" - side trip.
[*]"End of the Line" - side trip.
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Well, it looks like they were in pursuit of the cure for 12 out of 16 episodes (75%). However, in only 25% of the episodes was anything medically useful discovered. Well, the 75% figure isn't bad, and the 25% figure is probably unrealistically high, but some dramatic license is probably necessary here to maintain viewer interest (so it doesn't look like they almost never discover anything.) You're not going to hit paydirt every time.

The Path of Sorrows doesn't work dramatically, being an episode built entirely around flashback with nothing of interest happening in the present.

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The character revelations (I'm not just talking about the flasbacks here.) in "The Path of Sorrows" are of interest to me. Your statement also assumes that an episode has to have something of interest happening in the present, to "work dramatically." I disagree. "The Path of Sorrows" worked very well. It was a character piece.

The 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' episode is unintentionally funny.

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Not sure where you found it unintentionally funny, but for the most part, I didn't find it so. There were certainly places where it was intentionally funny (misunderstandings and quirks of the characters). There were also places where the the staging was bad (e.g. when Mr. Welles/alien hits the crewman in the suit with a ridiculous looking wrench, which obviously has no weight to it, and he obviously missed the crewman.)

War Zone is cheesy beyond belief.

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Some of the scenes were not very good:
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[*] the fight scene. Obvious misses and pulled punches. Badly staged. Also, the one poor guy Matheson keeps hitting was hilarious (the look on his face).
[*] the mistake of having Gideon and Matheson look out a window in the wall of the Explorer class ship's rotating section. They should have looked out a porthole at their feet. Remember B5's "The Long Dark" with Amis looking through the floor porthole at the ship arriving with the Shadow soldier of darkness on it? Like that.
[*] the see-thru rear view of the Explorer class ship's engines as it makes the jump to Mars. Shouldn't have been able to see the vortex thru the center of the ship (between the engines). Should have been opaque.
[*] the slack jawed viewing of the riot footage.
[*] the Ensign James/Mr. Ames name mistake.
[*] the first shuttle pilot (the one who got killed), flying right over the wreckage and not seeing it. His "evasive maneuvers" (slow turn) right over top of what is essentially an A-A battery. That guy gets a Darwin Award!
[*] the distant CGI scene of the IPX camp. Terrain needed work. Looked fake.
[*] the Drakh CGI soldiers, which could have been "skinned" a little better (better skin detail). Don't know if they could have been made less stiff/more lifelike looking with the 1998/1999 level of technology, or even with todays technology, especially on Crusade's budget.
[*] the painful, slow, connect-the-dots Gideon exposition at the end.
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However, I found a lot of "War Zone" to be quite good:
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[*] the Gideon/Ensign James fight scene.
[*] the Gideon/Matheson scenes in Gideon's quarters at the beginning.
[*] every Max Eilerson scene, with the possible exception of the Drakh "food station" scene.
[*] the distant CGI scene of the underground city.
[*] the blending of the underground city close-up scene with the previously mentioned CGI scene.
[*] the distant CGI scene of the shuttles loading up (prior to going to the downed Drakh ship).
[*] Galen dispatching the Drakh soldiers on the downed Drakh ship. All of Galen's effects.
[*] the Excalibur/Drakh fleet battle scenes, CGI, composite, and live action.
[*] the Gideon/Matheson scenes after the interrogation at the end.
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Both Peter and Edward Woodward struggle with over-worthy dialogue in The Long Road.

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over-worthy? What do you mean, pretentious and clumsy at the same time? Carrying a overdone sense of weight? JMS has said that he thinks this one comes off as overly "stagey" and I think that's about right.

The episode set on B5 features the worst alien race in any TV series, ever.

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"The Rules of the Game"
The acting? (Well, the Lorkans were obnoxious, but so were the Morati of "The Needs of Earth." They were supposed to be obnoxious.)
The makeup? [No, that award goes to the aliens of "Visitors from Down the Street" with the "rubber fishing worm" tendrils. Latex ones (e.g. D'Argo's on Farscape) look and move better.]

And Racing the Night resembles a Playstation game.

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I wouldn't know. I don't play games. I guess you're talking about Galen's homunculus? It was only meant to fool the automated ships. It didn't have to look exactly like Galen to us. Would you have rather it looked exactly like Galen, and had realistic blood & guts spilling out? That's have been awfully hard to do, even on a huge budget, and would have been too gory for the episode.

It's not that I don't think Crusade wouldn't have found its feet eventually, without TNT's interference, because it had some tremendous characters and potential. It just didn't seem to be working at all well as a dramatic series up to that point..

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Sounds like it would have needed a budget at least 20x as large to have a chance of making you happy (if they'd kept the CGI use as high as they did).

The Path of Sorrows doesn't work dramatically, being an episode built entirely around flashback with nothing of interest happening in the present.

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The character revelations (I'm not just talking about the flasbacks here.) in "The Path of Sorrows" are of interest to me. Your statement also assumes that an episode has to have something of interest happening in the present, to "work dramatically." I disagree. "The Path of Sorrows" worked very well. It was a character piece.

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Not to mention that I am sure that most, if not all, if the character backstory that we learned in that ep would have turned out to be very relevent to the full arc of the series had it been allowed to continue. If you are trying to tell a 5 year arc story, you can't write every episode based on how relevent it will turn out to be *if* you are canceled tomorrow.

I know, I suppose my gripe with that particular episode was structural - that it was very much the 'let's all stop and have Flashbacks episode', with a *very* convenient plot contrivance (a flashback-eating alien) to justify it, whereas in B5 the flashbacks were part of the characters histories and were woven more deftly into the overall narrative. 'And the Sky Full of Stars' was the exception, I suppose, although it did have secondary intrigue in the present involving the kidnap of Sinclair and the unknown motivations of his kidnappers..

I don't fault Crusade for its lack of urgency in finding a cure, btw, that's down to the airing order of the episodes being totally fubarred..

I guess that I forgave the conveniance of that structure because I did find the backstory information that we got because of it to be pretty interesting.