B5TV.COM. Babylon 5 forums Babylon 5 message for the fans from Claudia Christian Babylon 5
Old September 26th 05, 18:54   #11
A_M_Swallow
First One
 
A_M_Swallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Christchurch, Dorset, England
Posts: 4,616
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

During filming of The Gathering the Vorlons went from bipeds with arms to limbless beetles. When other changes occurred I do not know but I suspect that they were always old.
A_M_Swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 26th 05, 19:00   #12
raw_bean
Commander
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huddersfield, UK
Posts: 147
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Always old, no doubt, but as the balance of evidence appears to show, not the oldest.
raw_bean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th 05, 10:19   #13
Springer
Ambassador
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Yeah, but JMS trying to keep his cards close to his chest. If he let it right out of the bag from the get-go, "Oh, the Vorlons are the oldest, they've been around for billions of years" it takes away some of the mystery of the Vorlons. Remember nobody was supposed to know anything about them. And after the Vorlons, the Minbari were the oldest.

As for Delenn, I think the change from a he to a she was down to Mira Furlan wasn't it? She didn't want her voice altered?
Springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 27th 05, 11:22   #14
GaribaldisHair
First One
 
GaribaldisHair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hull, England
Posts: 1,272
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

It was more the difficulty in getting it to be convincing ...

Click me
GaribaldisHair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th 05, 01:31   #15
raw_bean
Commander
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huddersfield, UK
Posts: 147
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Sorry, but the 'keeping cards close to chest' argument holds no water with me. If he was doing that, why bother to lie about the Minbari at all? Why not simply not point out ANY race as being the oldest? The way you phrase it seems to imply that he had to either lie and say what he did about the Minbari or else reveal spoilers about the Vorlons, ignoring the possibility of just keeping quiet altogether. There would be NO reason in the slightest to say the Minbari are the oldest to cover up thain fact the Vorlons are the oldest, and quite apart from the fact that I personally doubt JMS ever directly lied to the fans, the only logical conclusion as I see it is that at the point he made the statement, it was true. The early B5 brochure linked somewhere above certainly indicates that the Vorlons went through changes during the development of the show.
raw_bean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 6th 05, 09:40   #16
Springer
Ambassador
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Quote:
Sorry, but the 'keeping cards close to chest' argument holds no water with me. If he was doing that, why bother to lie about the Minbari at all? Why not simply not point out ANY race as being the oldest? The way you phrase it seems to imply that he had to either lie and say what he did about the Minbari or else reveal spoilers about the Vorlons, ignoring the possibility of just keeping quiet altogether. There would be NO reason in the slightest to say the Minbari are the oldest to cover up thain fact the Vorlons are the oldest, and quite apart from the fact that I personally doubt JMS ever directly lied to the fans, the only logical conclusion as I see it is that at the point he made the statement, it was true. The early B5 brochure linked somewhere above certainly indicates that the Vorlons went through changes during the development of the show.
You're confusing the two arguments. I never said that when G'kar says in the pilot that the Minbari were the oldest federation, that JMS was lying. At that point, as far as G'Kar knew, the Minbari were the oldest because in terms of the storyline at that point nobody knew a lot about the Vorlons, except for the Minbari. When I said JMS had been "keeping his cards close to his chest", I wasn't inferring that he was lying as you seem to think I am. G'Kar, as far as he knew, was saying the truth. JMS was doing a slow reveal on the Vorlons, which culminates in later seasons as we discover things about them at the same the characters do. Remember In The Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum? Would that have been as big a revelation if we had already been told that the Vorlons were billions of years old? Of course not. We may have suspected from clues that JMS gave us, but we didn't know for sure.

The promotional brochure, which I quoted, was for the WB execs, not the fans, so he was not "lying to the fans" with that brochure. Its already been stated in the official magazine that, when he was trying to sell the show, he was worried about how TV execs would take to the ideological aspects of the show. And in the pilot and the during the first season, not a lot is known about the Vorlons, so he couldn't put on the brochure "nobody knows anything about the Vorlons" and leave it at that because that's not going to help to sell the show. So the stuff about Vorlons conspiring against Earth in. Maybe they were older ideas, but I find it so hard to believe that twelve months before filiming on The Gathering began that the concept of the Vorlons, and hence the whole of the B5 story, was so different. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Of coure, when JMS releases his scripts, with the original Gathering script contained inside it, maybe we'll be able to find out for sure. But its fun to speculate, and its fascinating to see how B5 was developed.
Springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st 05, 11:58   #17
raw_bean
Commander
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Huddersfield, UK
Posts: 147
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Quote:
Quote:
Sorry, but the 'keeping cards close to chest' argument holds no water with me. If he was doing that, why bother to lie about the Minbari at all? Why not simply not point out ANY race as being the oldest? The way you phrase it seems to imply that he had to either lie and say what he did about the Minbari or else reveal spoilers about the Vorlons, ignoring the possibility of just keeping quiet altogether. There would be NO reason in the slightest to say the Minbari are the oldest to cover up thain fact the Vorlons are the oldest, and quite apart from the fact that I personally doubt JMS ever directly lied to the fans, the only logical conclusion as I see it is that at the point he made the statement, it was true. The early B5 brochure linked somewhere above certainly indicates that the Vorlons went through changes during the development of the show.
You're confusing the two arguments. I never said that when G'kar says in the pilot that the Minbari were the oldest federation, that JMS was lying. At that point, as far as G'Kar knew, the Minbari were the oldest because in terms of the storyline at that point nobody knew a lot about the Vorlons, except for the Minbari. When I said JMS had been "keeping his cards close to his chest", I wasn't inferring that he was lying as you seem to think I am. G'Kar, as far as he knew, was saying the truth. JMS was doing a slow reveal on the Vorlons, which culminates in later seasons as we discover things about them at the same the characters do. Remember In The Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum? Would that have been as big a revelation if we had already been told that the Vorlons were billions of years old? Of course not. We may have suspected from clues that JMS gave us, but we didn't know for sure.

The promotional brochure, which I quoted, was for the WB execs, not the fans, so he was not "lying to the fans" with that brochure. Its already been stated in the official magazine that, when he was trying to sell the show, he was worried about how TV execs would take to the ideological aspects of the show. And in the pilot and the during the first season, not a lot is known about the Vorlons, so he couldn't put on the brochure "nobody knows anything about the Vorlons" and leave it at that because that's not going to help to sell the show. So the stuff about Vorlons conspiring against Earth in. Maybe they were older ideas, but I find it so hard to believe that twelve months before filiming on The Gathering began that the concept of the Vorlons, and hence the whole of the B5 story, was so different. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Of coure, when JMS releases his scripts, with the original Gathering script contained inside it, maybe we'll be able to find out for sure. But its fun to speculate, and its fascinating to see how B5 was developed.
I'm sorry Springer, but you are confusing *my* arguments too. the 'playing cards close to chest = lying = what I don't think JMS would do' line of reasoning related not to G'Kar's line, your points are perfectly logical there; I wouldn't argue the G'Kar at the time was any great authority on Vorlons. The person who *was* a great authority on Vorlons, however, was JMS, who said online, to repeat: "The Minbari are the oldest of the different alien civilizations, and
largely kept to themselves." Genie, Wed Jan 01, 1992. Read it here: http://www.midwinter.com/b5/GEnie/jms92-01

I didn't realise that in your original 'playing cards close to chest' line you were still talking about G'Kar, I assumed it was a response to the JMS quote I posted. Now that we each know what the other was *actually* talking about ( ) , maybe my post makes more sense to you?

As far as I'm concerned the G'Kar line and early brochure are merely loose corroborations, largely unecessary, of this direct and specific quote from the man himself. But you're right, maybe we'll find out more when the scripts are released.
raw_bean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th 05, 06:30   #18
deaded
Telepath
 
deaded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 500
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

First of all, we all KNOW G'kar. We know he was playing to the Minbari pride when he spoke to Delen. In the same vein, JMS has made clear throughout the series that all beings are known to lie: or as Londo might say, “Mis-speak.” You can't believe everything you hear, or see. Just because G'kar said that the Minbari are the oldest and most powerful does not mean it is a true fact. But he knew it would get the attention of Delen.

Secondly, since the Vorlons did not participate in any interspecies events prior to B5, I don't think that he was including them when JMS spoke of the five major races. I think that the phrase, 'Major races,' was espoused from a Narn viewpoint and I suspect that they were (in no particular order), 1) Narn, 2)Minbari, 3) Human, 4) Centauri, and 5) Drazi (Yeah, Drazi, sure they were "non-alligned" politically, but physicaly they were everpresent).

uh... so when is this releasing-of-the-scripts supposed to happen? I must have missed something. I imagine it will be through Warner Brothers and Del Ray or something, right?
deaded is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th 05, 11:21   #19
A_M_Swallow
First One
 
A_M_Swallow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Christchurch, Dorset, England
Posts: 4,616
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Quote:
uh... so when is this releasing-of-the-scripts supposed to happen? I must have missed something. I imagine it will be through Warner Brothers and Del Ray or something, right?
It has started, you can buy through this website
www.babylon5scripts.com

They are published by Cafe Press.
A_M_Swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th 05, 15:39   #20
Springer
Ambassador
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 410
Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Quote:


Secondly, since the Vorlons did not participate in any interspecies events prior to B5, I don't think that he was including them when JMS spoke of the five major races. I think that the phrase, 'Major races,' was espoused from a Narn viewpoint and I suspect that they were (in no particular order), 1) Narn, 2)Minbari, 3) Human, 4) Centauri, and 5) Drazi (Yeah, Drazi, sure they were "non-alligned" politically, but physicaly they were everpresent).

Yeah, maybe that would explain it. It just seems strange to me that with so much of the rest of the storyline so evidently decided upon (eg JMS' detailed description of the Earth-Minbari War) that he would change his concept of the Vorlons at the last minute.

And sorry raw bean, didn't mean to go all irate on you! I must have been having a bad day or something.
Springer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2001 - 2018 B5TV.COM