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Old August 20th 05, 23:10   #21
Jade Jaguar
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

Well, I think Lorien was the "man in between," but not for Enlightened G'Kar's reasons. Lorien was not searching for Sheridan at all. There is a big difference between searching and waiting. Sheridan literally dropped in Lorein's lap. I think Lorien and Sheridan were opposite counterparts because Lorien was between the Vorlon and the Shadows, (and the other remaining First Ones,) just as Sheridan was the man between humans and the other races in his alliance.

The one thing I AM sure of in Lady Morelia's prophecy is that dying at G'Kar's hands was Londo's greatest fear. He was tormented by nightmares of it for years. Of course, when it finally came, it was no longer his greatest fear, but his way out, and to try and save his people.
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Old August 21st 05, 00:12   #22
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

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There is a big difference between searching and waiting. Sheridan literally dropped in Lorein's lap.
I think while Lorien wasn't actively jaunting around the galaxy looking for Sheridan, he was, perhaps a bit more metaphorically if you will, looking for him in that he was looking for a hero-type to come along eventually.
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Old August 21st 05, 00:49   #23
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

Agreed, vacantlook.

Lorien was "searching" for Sheridan the best way possible. You see, Lorien was not searching for John J. Sheridan specifically, he searched for the first person that would take that drastic step against the Shadows, against all the legends.
I believe that Lorien had to sit with idle hands so that his search was confirmed indefinitely. With patience like destiny, (notice that patience is a characteristic Lorien supports in several occasions) Lorien ensures that his search for the nexus that will lead the younger races is fulfilled in Sheridan. Indeed, it was necessary that Lorien wait to affirm his search; it was necessary that Sheridan arrive at Lorien's feet. In Lorien's timeless persistance and Kosh's infinite wisdom, Kosh knew ten-fold that Sheridan was the one that Lorien remained in suspense for for so long.

Thus, "the man in the middle is searching for you."

As for the Lorien not man or Human point, what would you define Lorien as? A woman? A transgendered being? An entity sans gender? You have to designate people in some form of manner.
Furthermore, check out Lorien's beard. He is either a dude, or the highest-grossing bearded lady in interstellar history.
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Old August 21st 05, 02:12   #24
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

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As for the Lorien not man or Human point, what would you define Lorien as? A woman? A transgendered being? An entity sans gender? You have to designate people in some form of manner.
Furthermore, check out Lorien's beard. He is either a dude, or the highest-grossing bearded lady in interstellar history.
Lorien's true form was a glowing ball of light with tentacles of light streaming from it. He just took the humanoid form to move among other humanoids. Pardon the sexist premise, but he probably took the old, bearded man form, because in our culture, that denotes the wisdom of age, which he had, more than any other being. But, I don't claim that his lack of humaness rules him out as the man in between. As I said, I believe his is that "man," but I have what I believe are better reasons.

I'm in reply mode, and can't go back and check. Did the prophecy actually say "searching," or could it have said watching, or looking, which would be an accurate description of Lorien's wait for Sheridan? I don't think Lorien knew the identity of who he was waiting for, just that he was waiting for someone special, and for special purposes, which were most likely known to him in a moderate amount of detail. I'm sure Kosh knew Lorien was down there, and possibly knew he was waiting for someone/something. But, Kosh had warned Sheridan NOT to go to Za'Ha'Dum, so, I doubt that it was Kosh's plan, or vision, all along was that Sheridan go, and jump in the pit. I think that came to Kosh as things happened.
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Old August 21st 05, 08:29   #25
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

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Lorien's true form was a glowing ball of light with tentacles of light streaming from it. He just took the humanoid form to move among other humanoids. Pardon the sexist premise, but he probably took the old, bearded man form, because in our culture, that denotes the wisdom of age, which he had, more than any other being. But, I don't claim that his lack of humaness rules him out as the man in between. As I said, I believe his is that "man," but I have what I believe are better reasons.

I'm in reply mode, and can't go back and check. Did the prophecy actually say "searching," or could it have said watching, or looking, which would be an accurate description of Lorien's wait for Sheridan? I don't think Lorien knew the identity of who he was waiting for, just that he was waiting for someone special, and for special purposes, which were most likely known to him in a moderate amount of detail. I'm sure Kosh knew Lorien was down there, and possibly knew he was waiting for someone/something. But, Kosh had warned Sheridan NOT to go to Za'Ha'Dum, so, I doubt that it was Kosh's plan, or vision, all along was that Sheridan go, and jump in the pit. I think that came to Kosh as things happened.
Lorien had tentacles? Whoa. Never knew that.

"The man in the middle is SEARCHING for you." I believe is what the dream states.

Okay, whoa. Kosh most definitely does not tell Sheridan to avoid going to Z'Ha'Dum. Kosh simply states, "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum, you will die." This line is simply a fantastic line. Of course, it reaches its full potential in the episode "Z'Ha'Dum," where Sheridan beholds the visage of Kosh telling him that inside Sheridan's mirror. Apologies, I am so discursive.

Kosh knew there was no preventing Sheridan from going to Z'Ha'Dum. Not after their agreement in "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum," at least. Do not forget Kosh is a well-versed student of Humanity ("Midnight on the Firing Lane"). Kosh new well of Sheridan's temerity, and he was well aware that Sheridan's boldness would not be misdirected. The line, "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum, you will die" is a flawless sentence created to bolster the viewer's suspense.
(You see what JMS did there? Does that not make you feel blessed?) In hindsight, "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum, you will die" speaks as an understanding between the two 'men.'

Kosh believed in Sheridan's purpose. In fact, Kosh was the hand of destiny guiding Sheridan along with his pointer finger aimed at Z'Ha'Dum, and his middle finger aimed at the Shadows. Kosh knew Sheridan already had his bags pact for the Shadow homeworld as soon as "In the Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum" ended. Though impossible to be one hundred percent certain, what other candidates were there to meet Lorien at Z'Ha'Dum?

Exactly. Kosh knew.
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Old August 21st 05, 11:36   #26
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

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Lorien had tentacles? Whoa. Never knew that.
Remember: Glowyball Lorien was holding Sheridan with two tentacles when he was asking him "Who are you? What do you want? Who are you? Who are you?" over and over.

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"The man in the middle is SEARCHING for you." I believe is what the dream states.
"Searching" is the word I remember when I hear the line in my mind too.
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Old August 21st 05, 17:46   #27
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

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Okay, whoa. Kosh most definitely does not tell Sheridan to avoid going to Z'Ha'Dum. Kosh simply states, "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum, you will die."
Most, if not all, humans would interpret 'don't do X, or you will die!' as a warning not to do X. Kosh knew this, and, Sheridan took it that way, since he believed he was going against Kosh's will when he went to Za'Ha'Dum. If Kosh had had some grand plan, in which Sheridan must go to Za'Ha'Dum, I think Kosh would have handled it quite differently. He probably would have given Sheridan some cryptic advice on what to expect/do when he got there. But, I agree that Kosh may well have expected Sheridan to disobey, and go to Za'Ha'Dum.
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Old August 22nd 05, 05:04   #28
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

Still, I maintain that the use of Kosh's words -- "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum . . . -- is the key. In all of Sheridan's impetuousness, I believe that Kosh and Sheridan both knew that he was going to travel to Z'Ha'Dum anyway. Kosh said it well by characterizing Sheridan as 'disobedient' in "Interludes and Examinations." I just hold on to the theory that Kosh was merely offering an admonishment by telling Sheridan he would die at Z'Ha'Dum with the knowledge he would go their despite Kosh's prophecies.

However, debating Kosh's intentions behind each line . . . is not something I will ever be prepared to debate.

I suppose we all see the Vorlon the way we wish.
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Old August 22nd 05, 10:00   #29
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

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Thus, "the man in the middle is searching for you."
OMG, you are SO right!! Lorien IS the man in the middle! Damn, I should have seen that. I'm, what, 10 years behind the rest of you all?
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Old August 22nd 05, 12:51   #30
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Re: Dredging up an old debate...

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OMG, you are SO right!! Lorien IS the man in the middle! Damn, I should have seen that. I'm, what, 10 years behind the rest of you all?
Well, don't be so hard on yourself. Given that JMS has explicitly said that Jusitn is the man in the middle and that's who he had in mind when he crafted Sheridan's dream, you weren't wrong, the folks who think Lorien "is" the MiM are. I've never understood the mindset by which some people ignore the answer supplied by the guy who created the puzzle and insist that their own pet theory is somehow "truer" or "the real answer". Me, when the magician comes out from behind the curtain and says, "This is how the trick was done", I tend to accept it and don't stand there arguing that he really did it by some other means.

Regards,

Joe
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