Babylon Five fiction or a future reality?

To everybody (specially USA members of this forum),

Meanwhile we wait for what JMS has to say about the PROBABLY new project on B5 universe. I would like to raise this topic for open, mature, calm and relevant discussion.

I assume everybody here is a B5 fan. Therefore you should had figured out that JMS tried to show us by the B5 arc the notion of NATION will be over by that time. We actually should stick together being race as a whole, no, countries, religions or flags (as John Lennon would say). Hopefully, if we are not destroyed before by a mad man such as G.W. Bush, Sadam Hussein, the North Corean guy, and others, we might see an EARTH citizenship.

For the above, I believe that B5 invite us to talk about politics. Therefore I would like to invite all the USA people to NOT VOTE in G.W.Bush next year. Also invite the Spanish people to NOT VOTE in Aznar, the British people to ask the resignment of Blair (same way the bolivians did with their president),as well as the Italians regarding Berlusconi.

Too much blood, sorrow and pain have being with us lately, just because of pride, money and power. Let us use the DEMOCRACY as a weapon against people that instead of making B5 universe a reality is working as The Shadows' agent, bringing chaos and desperation to our world.

Good Bless you all (not just "america"),

Cadu
ZAHADUM

Unfortunately, a pre-requisite for all of us getting together in the "earth-gov" idea is the realisation that we are not alone in the galaxy (and are, in fact a tiny, insignificant speck in the universe!)
Seperate Nation states only band together when confronted by an outside force (UK versus the Vikings, USA versus the British etc).
Historically, a rational desire for democracy rarely (if ever?) has anything to do with it!
So....we'll have to wait for the Centauri or someone to come calling!!

i'd suggest also israelis to get rif of sharon and palestinians to get rid of arafat

No secret -- against some aforementioned politicians, I hold notable dislike. However this forum seems ill suited for daily political debate. For that purpose, I prefer the off-topic forum.

To every group of people, my standing suggestions remain. A) Exchange your representatives often enough -- to avoid stagnation and corruption. B) When shuffling their places, consider efficiency, integrity and achievement -- accept only those who exhibited those properties. C) Take interest, observe, doubt, criticize, influence, question... while accounting for possibility of erring, pursue what you want.

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Regarding countries, nations, borders and divisions... our perceptions of distance are relative. While in objective reality, the only sovereign administrative unit on Earth is Earth... most countries prefer to see themselves as sovereign. In very limited degree, they are.

Before we meet sentient beings not originating from Earth... we naturally exaggerate differences between humans. Once we gain a point of comparison outside our world... relative distance will change, and our perception too.

With current developments in observation and computing technology, I suspect this change will come soon enough. At the very least, it will be interesting -- possibly in a pleasant, possibly in an unpleasant sense.

One thing I am certain about -- this change of perspective would represent reality, and hence be welcome. Ill reaction to such a simple realization could only derive from our own errant nature.

Because everyone is different -- and everyone should realize where the greatest and most powerful difference lay. For sentient creatures, not in apperance... not genes, heritage or even location... but what we want.

Everyone should view everyone else with a healthy degree of doubt. However equally much, where understanding is gained and common goals found, doubt should decrease.

I confess, it has been awhile since I really watched B5. But are there really "no nations"? Yes, I know it's a united government on Earth at that point. But Ivanova most definitely considers herself to be Russian. And I'd have a hard time believing that any one world government could really make decisions for the town where I live, for example. I think to some extent there might still be a lot of local governing going on.

And don't be surprised if this thread gets moved. I do think the moderators prefer political discussion to go in the Off Topic forum.

I don't know about that "no nations" idea. In A Call to Arms when Sheridan arrives to Earth he is contacted by a Russian Omega cruiser captain who says something like "By the behalf of Russian Consortium and our losses in recent wars..." or something like that... So, there is at least Russian Consortium. There aren't maybe nations, but most certainly there is something.. more like a province of EA.

The religion. We all know, by watching the Parliament of Dreams, that at least Minbari, Centauri and even Narns have one single main religion on their planet. But in B5 universe, at the end of Parliament of Dreams, Sinclair intoduces all human religions. Atheist, buddhist people, catolic etc. So in B5 universe, EA has these "provinces" and all these religions that are found on our planet nowadays.

And don't be surprised if this thread gets moved. I do think the moderators prefer political discussion to go in the Off Topic forum.

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This is political discussion of "what if..." that is related to B5 universe. I most certainly wish that this thread stays here. I visit the off-topic area rarely nowadays.

P.S Good thread this definetely is (sounds like Yoda...).

even Narns have one single main religion on their planet.

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Not certain about that. I recall seeing mentions of the Narn having many religions. Followers of G'Quan seem merely one bunch -- perhaps a majority, because G'Quan was an important historic figure in a major struggle. [1]

As for Minbari... long history, relative isolation and Vorlon influence have probably decreased diversity. But still... what Minbari "religion" appears to cover in extent, it equally much avoids in intensity. One caste calls themselves "religious"... what they really think (and what the rest think) is not that sure.

Most rituals are either practical and irrelevant to religion (rituals between lovers, dreaming) or focus on something related to Valen -- who was not a prophet, nor preached a religion. He simply repelled an enemy thought undefeatable. [1]

As for Centauri, let me count... they have quite a bunch of deities and supernatural powers, some certainly contradictory to each other. I would not classify that feast as relevant to belief.

[1] Ironic that by spreading chaos via poorly chosen means, most notably use of violence, the Shadows actually created a degree of order and uniformity among the Narn and Minbari.

A perfect example of my point!!

even Narns have one single main religion on their planet.

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Narns have at least two religious groups: followers of G'Quon and followers of G'Lan. Na'Toth states in one episode that her family followed G'Lan. G'Lan(ism) is probably the older religion since G'Quon's texts are only a thousand years old. It should also be noted that Kosh appeared to G'Kar as G'Lan, however, G'Kar saw no need to run right out and convert.

Of course, intricacies of any society always have to be simplified for television. It's usually two groups fighting each another for control of a planet, or two species fighting for dominance (Xon, anyone?), or just a couple of religious beliefs. After all, it's entertainment, not a thesis in sociology.

The difference between complex reality and simple fiction was perfectly demonstrated at the end of "The Parliament of Dreams", when Sinclair introduces the Ambassadors to the infinite line of guests representing Earth's dominant religious beliefs.

Let's face it - our little planet has a shitload of Gods, and we're getting more all the time. By 2258, at our current progress, one in three people will probably have their own church and know at least one God personally.

I assume everybody here is a B5 fan. Therefore you should had figured out that JMS tried to show us by the B5 arc the notion of NATION will be over by that time. We actually should stick together being race as a whole, no, countries, religions or flags (as John Lennon would say). Hopefully, if we are not destroyed before by a mad man such as G.W. Bush, Sadam Hussein, the North Corean guy, and others, we might see an EARTH citizenship.

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However foreign it would seem to me to interpret JMSs words, I do believe you're wrong.
I believe that he wanted to say that we're all human, alien or not. He doesn't say that there should be no nations, he says that there should be no racism. We all need something to feel proud about, a nation, sports team, company or, why not, religion. Competition is good. War is bad.

/John J.

B5 is a future reality, but not in the way you think. In fact JMS shows us how reality is today, and how it will still be in the future.

It shows us that things like government, democracy and religion are all too easily misused by people for their own dark agenda's.

In a democracy the idea is that the people should rule the nation. But instead they vote for a government, who does what it pleases. Ones the government has the media behind it (it always has!) people fall for everything that government has to say. Remember Marshall Law was very popular when Clark was president, and I didn't hear many American protests when Bush started to bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age!
And with religion, it is usually the start of wars. Why? Because any (organized) religion was started by someone who thought he had gotten to the truth. Later generations believe that he indeed gotten to the truth, so everybody else must be wrong. And, in God's name, they will make all the others understand that there is only one thruth, and that thruth has been found already.

I myself, I don't believe in God. I only believe in humans, and humans use guns to get what they want. So if people tell me 'God Bless you' , I can't help the feeling of a gun being pointed to my head in order to make me agree with it.

I myself, I don't believe in God. I only believe in humans, and humans use guns to get what they want. So if people tell me 'God Bless you' , I can't help the feeling of a gun being pointed to my head in order to make me agree with it.

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The oversimplification and jumping-to-conclusions I see in this paragraph boggles my mind.

As for B5 -- there are definitely factions, or states, or governments among the humans of the time. But we're never sure as to what kind of government there is -- is it a 'one world' with one president, or is Clark more of a Kofi Annan over a United Nations? Or something in between? Fascinating.

Forgive me for borrowing this, those who practice, but Minbari ritualizing reminds me a bit of 'neo-pagan' or Wiccan practices in some (not all) ways. And the Centauri gods definitely reminded me of the way the Roman gods were regarded by the Roman people around the time of Marcus Aurelius... superficially.

The originator of this thread posted it on 2 different web-sites (this one and WBonline message boards).
I find it fascinating that from an identical starting point the two discussions have gone in totally different directions. The WB site is mostly about the politics, and this one is mostly about the religious aspects......as I said, fascinating .

The WB site is mostly about the politics, and this one is mostly about the religious aspects......as I said, fascinating .

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I personally, in this thread, have avoided political comments because they belong in another forum -- and because my comments are bitter.

and I didn't hear many American protests when Bush started to bomb Afghanistan back to the stone age!

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I didn't hear much protest anywhere. With average lifespan of 43 years (quite possibly lowest on Earth) one could argue Afghanistan was already approaching... perhaps not the Stone Age, but pretty bad conditions (not that anything beyond Kabul has improved by today).

With how it started (military intervention) I actually agreed, along with many others. Previous wars had simply destroyed so much... that one more, if properly handled... would honestly not change much.

In how it proceeded (war by proxy via factions no less criminal, and insufficient security to rebuild) I consider those who promised relief and restoration of justice (with Bush as a prominent example) to have eaten their words, and hence deservant of choking on said words.

Perhaps I too could have done more to influence the course of processes... and I too should be personally ashamed by lack of prorgess... but at least I didn't back away from promises. Unfortunately, in a situation where failiure is knocking on the door, not much to be relieved about.

Well since I am responsible for bringing up this discussion to this board, I feel I should answer to all parties concerned.

First of all I must thank everybody for keeping this exchange of ideas at a high level.

Adrian – Apparently you are “Astms” at B5.com forum, aren’t you? I agree that at a certain level of “earth citizenship” awareness should be brought once we contact outerspace beings.

Yes, I also think is fascinating to see how different are the opinions of the two boards where I posted this thread.

Travell3r – I agree. Ariel Sharon is a mad man. He is spreading hate in Middle East.

Sleepy_Shadow – I hope this thread stays here. Actually I completely forgot about the “off-thread”. I do not agree about moving since B5 is an excellent story about politics, intrigues, and everything we are evaluating in this thread. I am sure if JMS read this thread he will be proud because that is what B5 is about. It is about hope, a better future, a great debate, being NOT naïve regarding politicians, press and society.

B5_Obssessed - Thanks for the interesting explanation about Narn’s religions. I didn’t remember.

Iamsheridan – Perhaps JMS tried to show us that actually we do not need religions (I am NOT saying faith in God or Jesus), or nations, or any of it. Because we ALL are Dust of Stars, or even the speech that G’Kar did and it can be read in same thread title at WB Forum brought by user “Babylongkar”.

LordRefa – You did a very clever statement. The only point I do not agree is “not believe in GOD”. I DO believe in God and Jesus Christ. What I do not believe is in RELIGIONS. Religions are made by HUMAN BEINGS. Therefore it must have vanity, ambitions, greed, shelfish, etc…. The best ever written lyrics is from John Lennon “Imagine”.

Channe – Yes, I agree with the comparison of human religions and B5 aliens. Actually, I believe JMS did in purpose. He wanted to use metaphors in order to make us think about our civilization’s errors.


Hypatia – You got a good point. JMS showed us a Planet Earth with some “consortiums”. The notion of nations, apparently, is over. I mean, the common people of the “Homeplanet” would believe to be a ONE nation. I remind you that the Earth Government was fighting against Mars Colony independence. Therefore the concept is that no more nations in Earth, but the “new nations” could be: Mars, Io, Proxima 3 and all the others humans colonies.

The originator of this thread posted it on 2 different web-sites (this one and WBonline message boards).
I find it fascinating that from an identical starting point the two discussions have gone in totally different directions. The WB site is mostly about the politics, and this one is mostly about the religious aspects......as I said, fascinating .

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I don't want to state my point of view of politics nowadays. Especially about foreign politics. Religion, on the other hand, is much more simple to talk about. Heck, it can even lead to filosofical questions and thoughts.

B5 at its best is a very cool tv show in the way it can prompt thought. (Don't forget, they blew up stuff, too.)

One could argue that B5 is clearly about the need to dissolve nations or clearly illustrates the inefficacy of super-national organizations like the UN.

I don't think JMS was saying nations, religion, or even war is bad. (If war was bad in itself, Sheridan would have left Clark alone.)

The fundamental point I saw JMS make was that "we are one" (as trite and new agey as it sounds. Yuck! ). And we are responsible for each other. He laid it all down very eloquently with Ivanova's speech at the end of Sleeping in Light.

Seperate Nation states only band together when confronted by an outside force (UK versus the Vikings, USA versus the British etc).
Historically, a rational desire for democracy rarely (if ever?) has anything to do with it!
So....we'll have to wait for the Centauri or someone to come calling!!

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There are a few other instances. Granted they've only shown up *very* recently, but they're around.

The one that comes to mind is "Free Trade". In many instances the world-over (From APEC to the EU to the WTO) nations have been willing to give up sovereign rights in exchange for freedom from tariffs/embargos. Yes, in many cases this is a direct response to an economic threat on the part of another nation, but in many instances its got nothing to do with a threat at all, just the recognition that fewer tariffs are good for everyone.

Personally I wish JMS would have explored the "MegaCorps" more. It's hard to get a sense of exactly what they are and how much power they wield from the little snippets we get in B5.

For example, did Minbarri belong to/own/participate in MegaCorps? Did the Minbarri even have a currency? How about the Centauri? They certainly seem to be a capitalist society, but we never hear about Centauri MegaCorps. Furthermore, even though we hear in Season 4 that the "MegaCorps have been running things behind the scenes for years..." how could that be true given the rise of President Clark? How could Clark's isolationist policies POSSIBLY have been good for business? Doesn't that suggest that the government (for better or for worse) was really still in control?

To me, that last bit is why I think B5 can never be a future reality. Over time, the trend seems to be weaker and weaker governments. From oppressive dictators, to powerful elected bodies, to elected bodies with limited power, etc. Keep in mind that the colonists declared independence in America because they were being oppressed *by elected officials*. Since the democracies/republics of today wield less power than the democracies/republics of yesterday, and there continues to be a general disdain for "big government" in politics today, I see no reason for the trend to discontinue.

While I agree with your initial thought, that there are other reasons why nations will cooperate, such as trade, I disagree with others.

First, the colonists declared independence because they were being oppressed by officials of the King, not elected officials. Second, while there aren't many absolute dictators around any more, and power is diffused within the various branches of government, I think that over all, government wields more power than it ever has, both in terms of military power, and also certainly in power over the individual. They are adding more "crimes" all of the time, and government is more intrusive than ever, here in the US, at least. The computer age has given the Government amazing powers to control and oppress us, and they find new ways to do that every day.

I do agree that what we really have is government by the megacorps, no matter which party is in the White House. In my opinion, one party, guess which, is much more arm-in-arm, and willing to do their bidding openly, but the other party certainly does their bidding too, and kow tows as well, since both parties feed on money, and it is big biz that has the money.

The computer age has given the Government amazing powers to control and oppress us, and they find new ways to do that every day.

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On the opposite -- the computer age offers us incredible means of communicating beyond the faintest hope of observation, censorship or interception -- by even the strongest centralized powers.

I actually think that in this sense, current human technology has surpassed "Babylon 5" -- mostly because social contradictions (censorship, copyright, surveillance) have motivated people to explore the principles of evading observation. Sooner than I hoped a few years back.

The computer age offers individuals the ability to communicate cheaply with many others -- faster and over greater distance. To express their opinion cheaper, access more sources of information, compare and verify them against each other.

It irrevocably links those technologies to economic success, ensuring they cannot be stamped out. Stopping freedom of opinion, trade, travel or communication... has always required societies to cripple themselves. To reject people/ideas basing on origin, strangle themselves socially, economically or scientifically.

The computer age has merely intensified the pressure -- to maintain balance, or face demise. It has given this pressure new facets.

The rule has always applied. Players change, but the playground remains tilted -- towards less control and more efficiency. This playing field *cannot* be leveled by any government in its own favour, since it is kept tilted by the laws of information theory.

Improvement may not be quick, since our kind needs societies, which cannot change everything at once. But the direction, in my opinion... is of remarkable permanance.

For me, the story of "Babylon 5" represents this: if we cling to the past, the future will wear us away. If humanity as a whole clings to past ways and structures, allows the worst of its heritage to reach the future... it undermines its own future.