JMS - Non-update update

Meanwhile, several other theater-goers that evening burst into laughter when the crew of the Enterprise was seen mourning Data's loss. Clearly those were viewers who had not watched the previous films, to say nothing of all 7 years of the series to begin with.

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Actually, I was one of the people who laughed when Data died, and I grew up on ST:TNG. I think the movie was just so bad that I didn't really care anymore. Plus, I also think that they'll find a way to bring him back, like they did with Spock.

I agree with Joe. Many films without big stars become big hits. But, on the other hand, it certianly wouldn't be impossible to have a big name in a B5 film, since there will be new characters, and most especially, a new bad guy.

I do find it odd that JMS ruled out an animated series, after he had already ruled out a series, but possibly he had heard speculation of an animated series, and wanted to stop it. I'm glad to see that he ruled out a stage or radio play, but sorry he didn't rule out a video game, I'm sure even the gamers here would rather have a film. Well, I'm certainly hoping it's NOT a video game! If not, the remaining possibilities seem to me to be: TV movie, TV Miniseries, or Theatrical Feature Film. Anyone of those would be wonderful! If it is for TV, I would prefer it be for premium cable, like HBO, so he would have more money, and freedom.

I think I'm one of the few people who, for the most part, enjoyed Nemesis. My biggest annoyance with the film is how stereotypically retarded Before was depicted. I personally think the character would have been best if done as simplistically as possible. He had less developed PROGRAMING, which is signifcantly diffenent than a less developed HUMAN BRAIN. But out of a need for base humor, they decided to have Before make stupid comments instead of deriving his humor from his simplicity.

Beyond that, I really liked the film. I loved the space battle, which is the best one I've done for a Next Generation movie, in my opinion because the ships actually bloody shot at each other. I love the plot of Generations and the basic plot of Insurrection, but the space battles in those two were assine. In Generations, if the Enterprise would have just shot at the damned Klingon Warbird, they could have taken her out of commission, but instead they need to try and make the situation dramatic so they used the defective cloaking device plasma coil an issue. The Enterprise destroyed the ship with a single freaking torpedo! They probably could have brought down the Bird of Prey's shields if they had hit it with 10 or 20 torpedos and then blown it up with the singlular torpedo. There was no need for a plasma coil manipulation if they had just actually attacked the damned ship. And the space battle against the Borg in First Contact was so unbelievably disappointing to me that I couldn't process that it had actually ended when it did. It happened so fast that I just had a massive cognative dissonance nearly shut down my brain. This was the Borg and a single Borg ship destroyed an entire fleet of Federation ships in "The Best of Both Worlds" during the season. The Federation freaked out over one single ship in "The Best of Both Worlds" so greatly that they were able to convince the Klingons to send ships to help defend the Federation and the Federation was actually considering asking the ROMULANS to help them. But in First Contact the major space battle of the episode was over within the first 10-13 minutes of the movie. Major disappointment for me!

But not Nemesis! The space battle was great! The Enterprise actually shot at things! They proved they have more than a single torpedo on board! They worked in syconicity with two Romulan ships to attack the Schimitar. They used their phasers to register impact points on the Schimitar's shields in order to estimate the location of the ship in order to fire salvos of torpedos at it! Not just a single torpedo or a collection of some form of spacial gass, but a multitude of torpedos! The Enterprise isn't a crap-ass vessel after all! Not since The Undiscovered Country had the Enterprise in a movie been shown to have a large quantity of ship-to-ship weapons on board!

If only the writers hadn't taken the easy way out of killing off a main character and provided a way to bring that actor back into the show through the download of Data's neural net and the existance of Before, and if only Before hadn't acted stereotypically retarded, I would have 100% completely loved Nemesis. But even with the problems I have with it, I don't hate the movie in any means, especially not as much as it seems many other Star Trek fans do.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with Nemesis is that it was a film about the Romulans, they actually had a Romulan on the series who was recurring - our own G'Kar, Andreas Katsulas (Tomalak) - but they didn't use him! Fah!

Aisling

I do find it odd that JMS ruled out an animated series, after he had already ruled out a series, but possibly he had heard speculation of an animated series, and wanted to stop it. I'm glad to see that he ruled out a stage or radio play, but sorry he didn't rule out a video game, I'm sure even the gamers here would rather have a film. Well, I'm certainly hoping it's NOT a video game! If not, the remaining possibilities seem to me to be: TV movie, TV Miniseries, or Theatrical Feature Film. Anyone of those would be wonderful! If it is for TV, I would prefer it be for premium cable, like HBO, so he would have more money, and freedom.

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Have you heard about Into the Fire? Sierra/Vivendi Universal still has the rights to publish that game. All footage with original actors still exists, game engine has been made, everything up to CF's music is in that game. If they reincarnate the project, I would be happy altough I strongly think that this is going to be a feature film. Because.. If this would be a game... why make so "big" thing out of it? On the other hand, gaming industry was more profitable in the last couple of years than Hollywood movies... so, based on that, I wouldn't rule out the game possibility.

Feature film is my buest guess, I'm not the only one. But I will not be disappointed if it turns out to be a game... it's just... there are so many good freeware B5 game projects out there, that a official game would sound kinda silly.. But whatever it is, I'm happy.

Don't worry, be happy!

I'd really be disappointed if it was only a game. I hope it's a movie or a movie series on tv.

Who was Peter Jackson's first choice for the role of Aragorn? Hard to imagine anybody else in the role now.

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As was mentioned (I think by vacantlook), Stuart Townsend was the actor originally hired to play Aragorn. However, he was not PJ's first choice either. Apparently Jackson tried hard to convince Daniel Day-Lewis to take the part. The reports said that Day-Lewis turned it down because he didn't want to leave home for the 18 continuous months that the role would require.

When I originally saw those reports I thought that Day-Lewis could do a wonderful job with the role. Nothing against Mortenson's performance, but I still think that he would have had he actually wanted to do it.

RE: Aragorn: I have no idea who the original actor was (since I've never heard either Jackson or Mortensen mention a name when telling the story), but he evidently quit after filming had already started and Viggo was contacted in the States, offered the part, and given a very short deadline for answering. If I recall correctly he wasn't familiar with the books and hadn't seen a script, and was convinced to take the part by his teenage son - who had read the books.

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Quoted from the "Primetime Thursday" Lord of the Rings - Return of the King special, 12/04/2003 10PM:

Jay Schadler: "And Viggo Mortensen, the intense and charismatic King Aragorn, he got the part when another actor was fired after only one day of shooting. With just 24 hours to decide, Mortensen took the role that may define his career. Why? His 13 year old son loved the story."

I don't know enough about studio shennanigans, but is it possible that this new B5 project could be a movie for a premium movie network like Showtime or HBO? Would that be a feasible avenue for the creation and broadcast of this new project?

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Sure, but that would still make it a made-for-cable TV movie, just with more leeway in terms of language and nudity, and a slightly bigger budget. Jeremiah was done for Showtime, and SG-1 and the most recent version of The Outer Limits both ran on that network, while HBO has done any number of original movies in addition to series like The Sopranos and Sex and the City. But HBO or Showtime vs. Sci-Fi or USA Network is a difference of "where it would be" rather than "what it would be".

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I don't know how he expects the neophyte audience to catch up, even the Telepath War has its roots in all five seasons of the show. Re-introducing all the characters in will make for bags of exposition. I'm not saying it can't be done (or hasn't) but I'm curious to see how effective it will be.

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This is discussed further up the thread, and I still think it is a non-issue. It is a bit like deciding that you can't make a film about the Cold War today without first explaining all four years of WWII, which produced the Cold War and would have shaped all your characters, and then all four years of WWI, which produced WWII.

All the new audience needs to know for a B5 film is enough about the characters, relationships, etc. so that they can follow the story being told to them at this moment. To believe otherwise is to believe that nobody could have started watching the series after the first season - that no episode would be intelligible to a newcomer, which obviously isn't the case.

Someone watching, say, a telepath war film would need to know who Lyta Alexander is at the moment that film begins - not who she was six or seven years earlier. Because Lyta's arc in such a film would take her from where she is at the start of the story to where she ends up. We might get glimpses into her earlier character, but they wouldn't be necessary. And while we might get more out of this hypothetical film knowing the backstory of the characters, a total B5 newbie could also get a totally entertaining experience out of what he sees on the screen - just as someone who never read a Superman comic or any of the old cartoons or the TV series could enjoy the first Christopher Reeve film even if the public phone joke made no sense because he or she didn't remember phone booths and didn't know that Superman had ever changed in one.

We didn't need to know the whole story of Bilbo's journey with the dwarves to the East to enjoy The Lord of the Rings, but those of us who did got just that little extra bit out of some of the scenes. We have to resist the completist, fan-boy impulse that obssesses over tiny and obscure story details and can't differentiate between vital story points and more-or-less meaningless ones. (I think this impulse is also behind some of the really implausible subject matter suggestions like The Dilgar War, Valen's Shadow War, The First Ones Beyond the Rim and The Humans on the Vorlon Homeworld circa 1,000,000 C.E. that keep coming up - details that people are curious about but which would either make deadly dull dramas no matter how you handled them or which would have such limited appeal that no studio or network would ever touch them.) There are any number of B5 stories that can be told without larding them with backstory. A Call to Arms didn't need to recapitulate the entire story of the Earth-Minbar War, the Babylon Project, the Shadow Vorlon War and the foundation of the Interstellar Alliance to tell its story, though it probably mentioned all of these things in passing. It managed to tell a self-contained and thoroughly entertaining story in a mere 92 minutes or so without devoting too many of those minutes to exposition. Thirdspace managed a similar feat.

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All excellent points, Joe. Sorry for not snipping, but I didn't want to look like I was intentionally excluding any of it.

Why all the sudden anxiety about how much backstory "has" to go in?

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Because we want to see the new project do extremely well, and because we who have seen and read virtually all of what the B5 universe has offered so far, have an extremely difficult time seeing it from a newbie's POV.

BTW, I couldn't be more pleased that "Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King" took home 11 Oscars last night. Loved Jackson's speech re. the "Fantasy F-word."

Due to illness I've been mysteriously missing these last couple of days of postings. I've read it all and caught up. Before I begin: LOTR, 11 Oscars! Rocks! I'm happy for Peter Jackson...it was his passion and it came through in the film...he's changed the industry forever and fully deserved the awards.

Ok, brace yourselves, for yet another rare moment, I'm in approximately 98% agreement with Joe. I have complete faith a writer with JMS's skills can bring to the big screen an incredible and living tale while giving all the pertinent exposition for newbies. JMS is one of those rare writers who can give exposition in an inticing manner...usually by making it some kind of mystery in the audience's mind that they wish to have solved, so they hang on the words of the actors. JMS is a master at it.

As for NEMESIS, all I will say is that I liked it...wasn't in love with it like I am with the LOTR trilogy...but in my opinion it was the best of the TNG cast films, but still didn't hold a candle to ST 2, 4, or 6. But I would rank it right under them. I tend to want to say as little about Trek otherwise, since to me it is dead until Rick Berman is flogged in the streets for what he and Brannon Braga have done to the wonderful universe. (Ok, Berman and Braga fired will satisfy my bloodlust I guess. :devil If I speak too much on this it will turn into a novella titled, STAR TREK: THE DEATH OF BERMAN, THE WRATH OF FANS.

Ok, on the B5 Universe, which to me has much life and depth left in it, not to mention a master at the helm in JMS. I've mentioned briefly in other posts the idea of a B5 trilogy (I don't think WB would put up cash for 5 films, no -- but a trilogy?).

Meditate on this bit of mathmatics, while holding in your minds the fact that WB wants to make money, bottom line. Any film that makes a profit is considered a success. Cult films are bankable, because they will usually always make their money back from the fans...the rest is cake.

Peter Jackson spent only $300 Million to produce the LOTR trilogy...that's about $100 Million per film (less than Lucas is spending on his FX laden, character flat, and plotless films).

Next you have an enormously surpising showing in the B5 DVD sales worldwide...millions of copies sold, enough to put the box sets in the top 10 sellers when they come out. That's impressive.

Now, who is the parent company of New Line Cinema? Non other than our own beloved WB. Both companies have just made a mint on LOTR.

Now consider that shooting a trilogy as one big film, a la LOTR, is actually less expensive than shooting each film seperately with time off inbetween (IE: first film's a hit, so they decide then to do a sequel so they have to call back everyone and work around schedules, the red tape turns into mountains). I might also point out that the new X-Men is shooting 3 and 4 together, BACK TO THE FUTURE did 2 and 3, and MATRIX 2 and 3(even though they weren't very good) were shot together. It is much more cost prohibitive to make one BIG film and split it into little ones for release. Oh, KILL BILL is another example.

Now, figure WB is generous and gives JMS $50 Million per "film." That's $150 Million to make a sweeping B5 trilogy that allows JMS to tell a big story (that's half the budget of LOTR and I don't think JMS will need everything LOTR needed). This also allows JMS to tell a BIG story, which has always been one of his problems in working in features...he likes to have more time to let a story unfold than a normal film allows.

Now, figure at least the number of households who purchased B5 boxed sets (this isn't considering there are more than one person per household on average) will go see the first film (obviously hyped and marketed out the ass). Then that film will more than make up its $50 Million budget. Say, even if it brings in $80 Million domestically, then almost half of the trilogy is paid for. Yet, we still have two more films to be released, and if JMS has planned and written them with his usual wonder (which I expect) people will be back for the other two films. If each film simply has a return of the same audience from the first one (which I believe the audience would grow) then the trilogy would bring in $240 Million domestically alone. That's a lot of fundage. B5 is proven then to be a money maker (not that it hasn't already with its stellar DVD sales).

With a minimal investment (comparitively), WB would with no doubt, based on DVD sales alone (figuring those people alone will come and pay to see the films), will more than make their money back and have a hit on their hands while giving JMS three films to tell a sprawling story.

Remember, LOTR has changed the way Hollywood sees this "shoot them all at once" thing. It really does cost less to do it that way.

I might have missed a couple of points in here because I was up and down from the computer while typing this, but I hope you all see the logic.

I'm not saying that it will be a trilogy...I'm simply telling you, B5 is a very viable prospect for WB. DVD sales can make a difference. WB would make their money back in the theatres at least three fold from B5 fans alone, domestically (not even counting foreign where it's huge and DVD releases of the films). Anyone with a head for numbers, based solely on the DVD sales, can see that B5 is a theatrically promising project.

Lest we forget, he might have had problems with TNT and MGM, but WB loves JMS (could there have been anymore initials there? ). B5 is their SF cash cow, and with SF on the rise again and SF-F finally being recognized by the industry, WB is ready to jump into the fray, with some DVD sales numbers that shocked WB as the impetus for their thinking.

Like I said, I'm not saying it will be a trilogy...but I can see where WB could have great expectations from B5 and JMS. It's all very clear to me.

All that said, I don't think it will be anything on TV short of a mini-series...and I don't think it will be that either. I'm expecting a feature film announcement at the least, if not a trilogy announcement. You don't keep this tight a lid on TV projects...no this is BIG...and it even has JMS saying it's pretty cool.

B5, if written and made well (what else could it be with JMS penning the script), with some strategically placed guest starring roles is a win-win prospect at its worst right now. It's a huge win-huge win prospect at best. As long as each person who bought even one box set goes to see it...there is no way it can't make a tidy profit. Of course, we all know that there are more than one person in each DVD home, on average, who will go see it...and that we'll tell everyone to run see it who isn't a B5 fan yet.

I don't think most people realize how much LOTR has changed this industry. Think about it.

Whether a single feature film or a trilogy...I'm 98% certain that we're getting one or the other.

Of course, like I've said before, if I'm wrong, I'll gladly come on here and admit it.

Now as to what this film (or films) might we about...only JMS and the WB elite know right now.

Some food for thought.

CE

Telepath points - SPOILER

Why all the sudden anxiety about how much backstory "has" to go in?

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I wouldn't call it anxiety, at least on my part, but you're acting like there will be no need to introduce these characters and the universe they inhabit. So how much is necessary? I don't know. Since Sheridan and Delenn are on Tuzenor, Garibaldi is on Mars, Franklin is on Earth, and Ivanova is on a Warlock Class Destroyer, does the neophyte even need to know what Babylon 5 is? It would sure help the title make sense.

In Star Trek: TMP the crewmembers had been scattered all over and we had to catch up with them before the story could get moving (relatively speaking ). B5 is in a similar state: everyone is scattered about the universe with no common bond, working in different capacities than when they were on the show. Garibaldi has an "Asimov Block" in his head that only Lyta can remove. Whoops!, the block was removed in The Nautilus Coil, so audiences may wonder why Garibaldi would let Lyta blackmail him in the first place, unless jms wants to explain the block that is no longer there or put it back in for the story. Then we need to know about Bester's part in all of this, of course with the black outfit and gloves I think they'll figure him out quickly. The audience will consider him a very short Darth Vader. The teep vs mundane bigotry can be laid out anywhere in the script without much problems. Delenn, if she's in it, will leave them confused. Of course, we have no idea what form the movie will take, but they do have to establish some background, do they not?

Even during the course of the show, we've seen characters wrap their mouths around some run-on sentences in order to bring the audience up to speed, such as:

"As you know, Captain, ever since we broke away from Earth and President Clark put the station on quarantine, it's been hard to bring in much needed supplies...."

My verdict: No, gobs of detail are not necessary, but even the minimum amount will take some time. JMS purposely made the story complicated. He can't simply undo it without leaving a mark. If the story foregoes the traditional complexities of Babylon 5, it may still be an entertaining romp, but it may not at all like what we've come to expect from Babylon 5.

CE, you're thinking BIG. I like that.

I'm thinking a little smaller, unfortunately. I'm thinking about WB recognizing the DVD sales as what they are...a strong direct-to-home DVD market for B5. Try as I might, I have a tough time imagining B5 capturing enough moviegoers to make even one theatrical release profitable, much less three. A miniseries seems more likely to me, but the more I've thought about it, the more logical a direct-to-DVD movie seems. Such a release would be targeted at folks who've already bought the DVD series and know the history, so no rehashing of backstory or character reintroductions would be necessary. Direct marketing also avoids the negotiations for airtime, advertising, residuals, etc. In short, I expect a one-off aimed at a proven audience, rather than an attempt to lure new fans.

Just my two cents. As I've said before, I'll take whatever comes gladly.

V/R
John

My problem with direct to DVD is that it really isn't a viable money making market for series-gone-franchise material. For badly done Disney animation sequels, yeah, sure, but not something like B5. This may be a market in the future, but it still hasn't proven itself.

Besides, WB is going to want something that can broaden the fanbase, and DVD sales might keep the current base but won't really go too far in introducing B5 to new audiences.

If you're basing on the DVD sales, remember, they went through the roof. It was enough to literally shock the execs at WB. You don't seem to realize that B5 is an international hit. It has millions of fans across the world. We're not just a few SF geeks. Most don't get online and post or lurk in forums, but they're very loyal fans who bought the DVD's and will go see a feature film, not to mention recommend one to their friends if it rocks.

B5 has no future if it doesn't grow and lure new fans. WB doesn't want status-quo, they want a franchise.

You underestimate B5, JMS, WB, and the fans. WB has made a ton of cash from the DVD sales. Probably enough to produce the trilogy I mentioned before, which would in turn, bring in even more cash and goodness knows where it might go from there.

Besides, there wouldn't be this much secrecy over a direct-to-DVD film. Nope, not at all. This stinks of a theatrical feature of some kind or another. Sources I know in the biz can't even get a lock on this project. No ones talking. No this is bigger than you're thinking.

Faith Manages, my friend.

CE

But I will not be disappointed if it turns out to be a game... it's just... there are so many good freeware B5 game projects out there, that a official game would sound kinda silly..

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I don't believe it's a game, but I'd like to point out that freeware games do not benefit the creators or the actors. By supporting such games, you're stealing money from those who should benefit from a game by virtue of ownership or other participation.

Aisling

Have you heard about Into the Fire? Sierra/Vivendi Universal still has the rights to publish that game.

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As far as I know Sierra scrapped the game engine, dumped the files, and moved on to other things. And surely their license to produce the game has lapsed by now. The live action footage may or may not still exist. (It would remain the property of Warner Bros., and Sierra would have had to return all their copies to WB or destroy them either when they scrapped the game or when their license expired. Given WB's track record when it comes to retaining old movie footage and computer files, I wouldn't bet a lot on any of that stuff still being around.

And with no current series in the works, or other on-going merchandising to feed off (a la Trek and Star Wars) I don't see anyone else getting into the B5 game business based solely on DVD sales. It would be one thing if there had already been a successful game or two when the show was on the air, since game series can become self-sustaining and survive the disappearance of their original inspirations, but there was no previous game. (And I've Found Her doesn't rate as such - assuming it hasn't scared off any commercial game company that was interested.)

So I'd put this possibility about a notch lower than direct-to-DVD, which I agree with CE is an incredible long shot and not economically feasible. It isn't like WB could produce a decent B5 project for DVD for much less than a decent TV movie, or even modestly-budgeted feature film would cost them. If that's the case, why not make a TV movie and try to sell it to Sci-Fi or syndication, then release it on DVD and make twice the revenue? No TV partner? OK, make a feature film. Sure it will cost more than a TV movie or direct to DVD release, but, again, you get many more bites at the apple: Domestic theatrical box office, foreign theatrical box office, domestic and foreign airlines, pay per view, premium cable and broadcast television revenues, and on top of all of that, DVD revenues as well. Why set yourself up to get only the last when for a relatively small bump in the initial outlay (which you're pretty much certain to make back even if the film is a comparative flop at the domestic box office), you can probably make a bit more and could make a whole lot more. (Especially since the DVD release of a box office hit is going to sell a lot more copies than a direct to DVD movie that nobody's had a chance to see and that you have to spend a lot more money promoting because nobody's ever heard of it before.)

From a business standpoint a theatrical film, although costly, may be the studio's best bet. And a direct to DVD release the biggest economic mistake they could make.

Regards,

Joe

Re: DVD Sales?

Would like to quickly say that I always enjoy reading everyone's views pertaining to the "pending" project, very interesting points made.

I would like to ask a question re: dvd sales? I have been trying to find out how many box sets (estimated) have been sold. If anyone is the wiser about these sale figures please let me know as it would be greatly appreciated.

Keep up the great work and I look forward to being put out of my misery... hopefully before Christmas!!! Let alone getting my hands on season 4 down here in Australia.. it just isn't right!!

jOLLY gOOD

Raistlin

Direct-to-DVD doesn't make much sense to me. What does is a big screen movie because if it does well it will have a lot of new people wanting to find out what went on in the B5 universe before/after whatever period the movie covers. Thus they will turn to the existing DVD sets so a movie looks to me to be a win-win for WB.

Maybe it is going to be a B5 big screen trilogy. That would be cool and Rising Star the comic was going to be trilogy, why not B5.

I think this is either a mini-series or a theatrical movie. Although the immense preparation period would suggest something of a theatrical scale I think a mini-series is more likely.

One thing that I think is worth considering is that JMS did not preclude a series all togeather in his most recent update but early posts from him regarding this project did so.

A pilot would likely fall under the defination of a series even if it would not be developed into one like the Rangers pilot. A mini-series however would stand alone outside the defination of a series but could act as the precursor to one as Battlestar Galactica has recently done.

Thus JMS would be correct in stating that the project itself is not a new series but perhaps his most recent update alludes to the fact that the new project could lead to a new series.

CE, I'm still skeptical about WB committing to a multi-picture deal, as you suggested, but it does solve one problem: screen time for the characters. The show had a very big cast. In one movie, jms would have to pick a handful to focus on, and reduce the rest to cameos, if they could be worked in at all.

By the sound of the rumbling, direct-to-dvd and a video game seem preposterous, and even a TV movie unlikely. It's clearly something big; the only question is *how* big.

The anticipation is so much fun in a painful sort of way, no?

I'd like to point out that freeware games do not benefit the creators or the actors. By supporting such games, you're stealing money from those who should benefit from a game

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By calling something "stealing" when it is not, you are not only harming the reputation of the people involved, but your own credibility too. Please avoid doing that.

I must insist that you speak of intellectual property with terms referring to intellectual property. "Stealing" refers to physical property. It deprives the owner of the ability to use their property.

Unlike stealing, neither fan fiction nor fan-made computer games deprive the owner/author of anything. Especially not in this case -- since the owner never succeeded in releasing a computer game.

You may argue that IFH (and modifications of existing commercial games along B5 themes) exceed the limits of fair use. I will counter-argue that Warner is aware of their existece -- and has not employed a single word/letter to stop their creation.

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Therefore, I consider your approach mistaken. By supporting a fan-made freeware game which *gets* released, as opposed to a something Warner authorised but never saw to finish...

...I am not supporting theft, but creative achievement without profit motive -- as opposed to abandoning work due to lack of predicted profit. Likewise, I am supporting the receptiveness of the market to new B5 products (there is that thing called "merit", and it does count).