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Old February 11th 18, 22:17   #11
Raw Shark
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

KoshFan, this is all terrific! And not all that tenuous. I had never given any thought to the first Centauri Emperor consulting with a Technomage, but it certainly does point to an important event. It's possible that the first Centauri Emperor's initial meeting with a Technomage is the event that caused the Vorlons to cut the Centauri off. I wonder what the timeline of all of this was? And I'll have to look into the timing of the Xon war/extermination as well.



It is a bit odd that the Centauri were such a readily-manipulated ally for the Shadows, but the Minbari and Vorlons didn't do anything to prepare for that eventuality. Delenn said there was a danger of revealing the Shadows' involvement with the new wave of conflicts, that they could move before the allies were ready for them. But when they did come out into the open, there still wasn't a plan. And the Vorlons, for all their sway with the Minbari, didn't do anything when the Warrior Caste decided to sit out the war. I would think a violation of their long alliance like this would not go over well with the Vorlons.



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Old February 12th 18, 03:08   #12
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

I REALLY need to read all of the books.

I can't say I hate prequels, but I'm not usually a fan. Having said that there are SOOOOOO many prequel stories I would LOVE to see in the B5 Universe like the Dilgar War, Valen during and after that war, and now I can add to the list the reason why the Vorlons never really synced up with the Centauri.
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Old February 12th 18, 10:33   #13
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

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I can't remember where I read it but I've got a memory of JMS answering a question about the veiled Centauri telepaths where he said that Cartagia eliminated them.
It's in the Centauri Prime novel Jan The Long Night of Centauri Prime. Cartagia had them shot as "he didn't want women poking into his mind."
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Old February 12th 18, 10:36   #14
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

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Originally Posted by Raw Shark View Post
KoshFan, this is all terrific! And not all that tenuous. I had never given any thought to the first Centauri Emperor consulting with a Technomage, but it certainly does point to an important event. It's possible that the first Centauri Emperor's initial meeting with a Technomage is the event that caused the Vorlons to cut the Centauri off. I wonder what the timeline of all of this was? And I'll have to look into the timing of the Xon war/extermination as well.


It is a bit odd that the Centauri were such a readily-manipulated ally for the Shadows, but the Minbari and Vorlons didn't do anything to prepare for that eventuality. Delenn said there was a danger of revealing the Shadows' involvement with the new wave of conflicts, that they could move before the allies were ready for them. But when they did come out into the open, there still wasn't a plan. And the Vorlons, for all their sway with the Minbari, didn't do anything when the Warrior Caste decided to sit out the war. I would think a violation of their long alliance like this would not go over well with the Vorlons.



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Elric, The Geometry of Shadows
In 1258 with the extermination of the Xon, the new Centaurum chose the head of House Kiro (responsible for the final genocide of the Xon) to be the new Emperor. He consulted with the Taratimude techno-mages Frazur and his two associates before taking the Throne.
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Old February 12th 18, 10:38   #15
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

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Ivanova's wrath/fear plus her latent talent might have been giving Bester something, yeah.

I've often wondered about the Centauri telepaths. They definitely seem more laissez-faire, more freelance, than the Human or Minbari structures.

But here's another wrinkle/can of worms: most of the telepathy we see in the B5 universe was specifically engineered by the Vorlons (including, I believe, their own). But we have strong indications that the Vorlons didn't meddle with the Centauri, since a) Londo sees nothing when he looks at Kosh, and b) the Centauri seem to have more of a historic connection with the Shadows, although I admit the evidence for this is tenuous.

So where did they get their telepathy?

And where did they get their ability to foresee the future? The Human teeps don't seem to be able to do that, and the only prophecies we ever hear from the Minbari are Valen's and we know how they got those. The only Vorlon prophecy we get ("If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die") seems to have been a warning more than anything else, and even if it's a prophecy, it's not that hard of one. I imagine that quite a lot of people who go to Z'ha'dum die there.

So how do the Centauri manage to see the future?

Two mysteries, quite possibly linked.

I do note that Centauri prophecy is at least conditional: Lady Ladira tells Sinclair that her vision is a possible future, Lady Morella lays out three possibilities for Londo, and last but not least, Londo actively tries to kill G'Kar at least once during the 2258-2262 span of the show, despite his dream. So the Centauri can glimpse the future, but it is never definite.

Frankly, I imagine this causes more problems than it solves; I can envision any number of "Oedipus Rex"-style stories in Centauri literature.

Try watching "Secrets of the Soul" The Vorlons created Centauri telepaths, you see a Centauri neonate floating in an artificial womb there.
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Old February 12th 18, 10:43   #16
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

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KoshFan, I've wondered that as well. Since the Centauri have telepaths, I have long thought that the Vorlons once favored them, or at least saw them as a useful race which should be gifted with telepathic genes. Just because you invite someone to your party and give them a slice of cake doesn't mean they wouldn't make good cannon fodder, right? But somewhere along the way, the Vorlons lost interest, or were disappointed by their bloodthirsty ways, and dropped their project to cultivate the Centauri. The younger races, excluding the Centauri, all seem to have been targets of the Vorlons' angel trick. But we don't know how long that particular Vorlon project was going on, it might have been a more recent gambit. Telepaths, however, have been around for at least a thousand years, since the Narn 'mindwalkers' fought the Shadows in the previous Shadow War. I would think the Vorlons' telepath project is much older than that, but can't say for sure. But it does seem clear that at some point the Vorlons gave up on the Centauri: "They are alone. They are a dying people. We should let them pass." No beings of light for them, I guess.

As for an historic connection with the Shadows, what do you mean? The Centauri Empire's great expansion and conquest of other races followed their discovery of a jumpgate in their home system, which enabled them to become a space-faring power rather quickly. And the Vorlons are the prime suspects for having built the jumpgates and placed them around the galaxy, but again, this is not certain. And when the Shadows blasted their way onto the galactic stage, the Centauri didn't seem to recognize them at all, but the Minbari and Narn certainly did. When the Drakh showed up in 2261, Londo mentioned that he knew of them from legends, but there wasn't much more than that, not about their origins, their misdeeds, nothing. No Centauri ever mentions having even heard of a Shadow War happening a thousand years ago, or before that, unless I am mistaken. The Centauri, despite having exploded out into the galaxy, never seemed to develop any real interest in anyone's history but their own. Rather, they were blinded by their own blood-soaked glories. Surely they ran across some of the old, dead, bombarded worlds we saw in B5 and Crusade, but maybe they just didn't care to learn more.

I'm trying to remember, did the Technomages have any Centauri members in the book trilogy? By the time they appeared in B5, humans had become the dominant race in that order, displacing another race called the Tiratimude, which has apparently not been making many waves across the galaxy recently. Kind of funny that humans were represented strongly in the order of Technomages, and then the Shadows chose humanity to be their next servant race, or even their successors. I'm not sure what to make of that dynamic just yet.

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The Taratimude weren't making waves because they were extinct, having wiped themselves out in fighting after Wierden founded The Circle from among the other races offered the tech.

Yes, Carvin was Centauri and was Alwyn's apprentice.

No The Vorlons are NOT responsible for the jumpgate network. it was an unknown race that built them circa 4800 BCE, the jumpgate builders disappeared circa 200 CE. Reference To Dream in the City of Sorrows.
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Old February 13th 18, 04:46   #17
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

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I can't remember where I read it but I've got a memory of JMS answering a question about the veiled Centauri telepaths where he said that Cartagia eliminated them.
That has always seemed very likely to me. Cartagia wasn't likely to want anyone around him who could read his mind. Couple that with how capricious he is (killing the jester for instance) and how come everyone around him knows a single misstep could kill them, it doesn't seem likely that he would have them around him.

If they're not dead, they're not allowed in the palace any more.
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Old February 13th 18, 06:44   #18
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

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Originally Posted by Jan View Post
I can't remember where I read it but I've got a memory of JMS answering a question about the veiled Centauri telepaths where he said that Cartagia eliminated them.
That has always seemed very likely to me. Cartagia wasn't likely to want anyone around him who could read his mind. Couple that with how capricious he is (killing the jester for instance) and how come everyone around him knows a single misstep could kill them, it doesn't seem likely that he would have them around him.

If they're not dead, they're not allowed in the palace any more.
No, as I posted above Cartagia had them killed. It's in the Centauri Prime novel.
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Old February 15th 18, 02:37   #19
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Re: Telepathy - why not use it more often?

Yeah, I missed that there was a second page. I guess I should read the books again.
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