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Old October 30th 17, 17:48   #11
Looney
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Re: The Wind Swords

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Originally Posted by b5historyman View Post
There wouldn't be any kind of Shadow/Allies escort, Jha'dur came straight from Minbar. Why would the Shadows allies be bothered with someone who, to all intents and purposes was dead?

We can speculate as much but the facts are the first shot just missed but got it's target on the second.
I myself have only recently heard the warning shot theory and I certainly WISH it were true. That doesn't make it true. I do feel like it would make more sense for that random shot to not be random. And I think the Shadows would definitely be interested in Jha'dur once they knew she was alive, which we know they likely would have known once it became public knowledge on B5 or any other planet, especially Earth. That being said I don't know why the Shadows would just take a warning shot and not see it as provocation for a direct conflict. One could argue they were playing it safe.

Anyway I love the conversation and I definitely think it would be more interesting if it really were a warning shot, but with most cases involving my wishes for Babylon 5 those wishes don't always make for reality. Unless someone knows a quote from the show that proves the Shadows were there or JMS admits there was an original intention that we find out later the Shadows were there then it wasn't a warning shot.
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Old October 30th 17, 23:47   #12
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Re: The Wind Swords

Re: How does one poison a being capable of passing through material obstacles, or leaving part of themselves, capable in some way of functioning, into another creature's mind?

Well, maybe the answer is: "how does one shatter vapour with a hammer"? Maybe by waiting until it turns to water and then freezes.

My preferred way of resolving this apparent contradiction is to think that Vorlons could undergo a "phase change" from one form to another. Kosh might have used a more vulnerable form of existence out of habit, out of trust (after all, he knew Sinclair, just not the other way around), maybe for ceremonial reasons, or because he knew he would... kind of difficult to tell...

...but it makes enough sense for me. If you go to open an embassy, you don't burst out of your ship in the most defensible or dangerous form you can take.

------

Kind of reminds me of when I still used to write fanfic. I had to figure out for myself how to explain the Shadows. And I settled for the explanation that they were just information, pretty much programs of their own making... but a program needs a computer to run on. The same program inhabiting a fair-weather body might have one set of abilities... moving into a massive ship, it would gain different properties... falling out of normal space into hyperspace, or maybe further, it would change yet again... and in some forms it would be vulnerable to attacks, while in a condition of being distributed between different substrates, part in normal space and part elsewhere... it would be very difficult to harm. Except by poison: corrupted information. For which reason it might want to encrypt its memory, randomize its address space and split into multiple processes which check each other's liveness and functioning... which would eventually lead to an individual resembling a mini-society of countless modules (some capable of splitting off and some also rejoining later), just like multi-celled creatures are composed of cells.

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Old October 31st 17, 09:55   #13
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Re: The Wind Swords

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Originally Posted by puzzle View Post
Re: How does one poison a being capable of passing through material obstacles, or leaving part of themselves, capable in some way of functioning, into another creature's mind?

Well, maybe the answer is: "how does one shatter vapour with a hammer"? Maybe by waiting until it turns to water and then freezes.

My preferred way of resolving this apparent contradiction is to think that Vorlons could undergo a "phase change" from one form to another. Kosh might have used a more vulnerable form of existence out of habit, out of trust (after all, he knew Sinclair, just not the other way around), maybe for ceremonial reasons, or because he knew he would... kind of difficult to tell...

...but it makes enough sense for me. If you go to open an embassy, you don't burst out of your ship in the most defensible or dangerous form you can take.

------

Kind of reminds me of when I still used to write fanfic. I had to figure out for myself how to explain the Shadows. And I settled for the explanation that they were just information, pretty much programs of their own making... but a program needs a computer to run on. The same program inhabiting a fair-weather body might have one set of abilities... moving into a massive ship, it would gain different properties... falling out of normal space into hyperspace, or maybe further, it would change yet again... and in some forms it would be vulnerable to attacks, while in a condition of being distributed between different substrates, part in normal space and part elsewhere... it would be very difficult to harm. Except by poison: corrupted information. For which reason it might want to encrypt its memory, randomize its address space and split into multiple processes which check each other's liveness and functioning... which would eventually lead to an individual resembling a mini-society of countless modules (some capable of splitting off and some also rejoining later), just like multi-celled creatures are composed of cells.
Joe has said the Vorlons are physical beings, I've posted links upthread. There's NOTHING in the canon to say they are energy beings. It's fan supposition nothing more.

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1...uery=poisoning

This explains the reasons for the attempt on Kosh's life from Joe's post on GEnie

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!se...U/44hNPGDTNQEJ

Last edited by b5historyman; October 31st 17 at 10:32.
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Old October 31st 17, 13:29   #14
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Re: The Wind Swords

Well, everything is physical.. including stuff we don't know about. And these critters sure seem to be at the far end of physical...

...especially when angered. That's the point where I recall the assassination of the second Vorlon ambassador by B5 staff, at the point when open war with weapons of mass destruction was already being waged...

...and Lorien, who most likely was competent in the matter, described the being that finally confronted Ulkesh... as some of himself and some of Kosh (who was quite dead by average humanoid standards by that point). In that fight, neither Ulkesh nor the creature that fought it seemed to respect the idea of not passing through walls, treating solid matter as a barrier and generally "behaving like a nice material creature".

So I think JMS was stretching the meaning of "physical" to hold the story together. I'd say the Vorlons were no ordinary matter, but quite exotic at the very least. A poison to kill a Vorlon would likely come from those who were acquainted with fighting them. That leaves to me a handful of possible makers, with only one species having the obvious motivation. Whether they made it or gave the necessary background knowledge... who knows.

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Old October 31st 17, 15:20   #15
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Re: The Wind Swords

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Well, everything is physical.. including stuff we don't know about. And these critters sure seem to be at the far end of physical...

...especially when angered. That's the point where I recall the assassination of the second Vorlon ambassador by B5 staff, at the point when open war with weapons of mass destruction was already being waged...

...and Lorien, who most likely was competent in the matter, described the being that finally confronted Ulkesh... as some of himself and some of Kosh (who was quite dead by average humanoid standards by that point). In that fight, neither Ulkesh nor the creature that fought it seemed to respect the idea of not passing through walls, treating solid matter as a barrier and generally "behaving like a nice material creature".

So I think JMS was stretching the meaning of "physical" to hold the story together. I'd say the Vorlons were no ordinary matter, but quite exotic at the very least. A poison to kill a Vorlon would likely come from those who were acquainted with fighting them. That leaves to me a handful of possible makers, with only one species having the obvious motivation. Whether they made it or gave the necessary background knowledge... who knows.
I posted previously as to where the Wind Swords got the poison from and where Jha'dur got the poison from to give to them.

Regarding the Vorlons, yes they're phsyical. But like ALL living things there is also energy. Both times Vorlons were killed there was an energy discharge that destroyed their physical bodies. There was no body in Kosh's quarters and we do not see any remains of Ulkesh either. The Kosh/Lorien hybrid obviously destroyed Ulkesh's physical form causing the immense energy charge that runs the exterior of the station into Ulkesh's vessel.
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Old October 31st 17, 18:25   #16
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Re: The Wind Swords

Going back to the Wind Swords, am I missing why we never heard anything about the Vorlons being upset with them? If all of this is true then Deathwalker was an acting Shadow agent being protected by a Minbari Clan who plotted to assassinate a Vorlon. Pretty HUGE deal! Did I miss where it was discussed why the Vorlon's didn't go after the Wind Swords? If it is in one of the novels don't tell me. Just tell me to read the books already.
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Old November 1st 17, 08:20   #17
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Re: The Wind Swords

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Going back to the Wind Swords, am I missing why we never heard anything about the Vorlons being upset with them? If all of this is true then Deathwalker was an acting Shadow agent being protected by a Minbari Clan who plotted to assassinate a Vorlon. Pretty HUGE deal! Did I miss where it was discussed why the Vorlon's didn't go after the Wind Swords? If it is in one of the novels don't tell me. Just tell me to read the books already.
1. The extremist elements in the Wind Swords were intent on disrupting the Babylon Project by framing Sinclair for the attempt on Kosh's life.

2. Jha'dur gave them the means to poison Kosh, no one apart from some of the Council knew she was even hidden on Minbar.

3. The Vorlons would have taken Sinclair back to the Vorlon Homeworld, to investigate whether he ws a Shadow agent as it could have only been an ally of the Shadows who knew how to kill a Vorlon.

4. Delenn clearly identified the responsible parties as an "extremist element" within the Wind Swords opposed to the Babylon Project. Not the entire Clan, so those elements would have no doubt been routed out and punished accordingly. Whether that came at the hand/tentacle of Ulkesh and the rest of the Vorlon Empire or whether they were incarcerated.

5. The fact that the Vorlons were still working with the Minbari, suggests a suitable form of punishment was agreed for both parties and the matter quietly dropped.
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Old November 2nd 17, 18:31   #18
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Re: The Wind Swords

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1. The extremist elements in the Wind Swords were intent on disrupting the Babylon Project by framing Sinclair for the attempt on Kosh's life.

2. Jha'dur gave them the means to poison Kosh, no one apart from some of the Council knew she was even hidden on Minbar.

3. The Vorlons would have taken Sinclair back to the Vorlon Homeworld, to investigate whether he ws a Shadow agent as it could have only been an ally of the Shadows who knew how to kill a Vorlon.

4. Delenn clearly identified the responsible parties as an "extremist element" within the Wind Swords opposed to the Babylon Project. Not the entire Clan, so those elements would have no doubt been routed out and punished accordingly. Whether that came at the hand/tentacle of Ulkesh and the rest of the Vorlon Empire or whether they were incarcerated.

5. The fact that the Vorlons were still working with the Minbari, suggests a suitable form of punishment was agreed for both parties and the matter quietly dropped.
Yep. There is some cool reading between the lines. Talk about a show within a show, aka there could be an entire show devoted to the stuff like this that likely should have happened, but we didn't actually see it on screen.
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Old November 8th 17, 00:03   #19
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Re: The Wind Swords

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In one of the Technomage novels, someone thinks (maybe Kosh?) about how the Shadows have evolved to the same extent that the Vorlons have, that they are energy beings, but still prefer to use physical bodies. I haven't read those books in a while, so I can't tell you which book or page, or the exact quote. I think that trilogy is considered 'mostly canon' or something along those lines.

I hadn't heard about those JMS posts on the assassination details, I'll check them out, thanks! I also mainly rely on the Lurker's Guide for such insights. That page is so great.

I find it kind of funny that I even brought all this up. I don't really enjoy The Gathering all that much, although I did enjoy some of the performances, and Stewart Copeland's soundtrack. JMS said that it was filmed using a five year old script, and clearly the story went in different directions once the series began. They largely moved away from the sinister Minbari Warrior Caste stories, with a few notable exceptions. But we never even saw a Wind Sword after The Gathering, either on-screen or in the books or comics, as far as I know. Yet another thing I always liked about B5, JMS' willingness to jettison plot lines in favor of more interesting ones he came up with along the way. The flexibility of his storytelling is really impressive. But I also like how the ongoing tensions, suspicions and resentment from the Earth-Minbari War never disappeared. For much of my childhood, the bitterness over the Vietnam War cast such a shadow over the United States, and it does take time to move on. It was refreshing to see such depth in a war story on a television science fiction series, I think exploring the psychological aftermath of a conflict was almost unheard of at the time.

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I've nearly finished my umpteenth read through of the techno-mage trilogy and have yet to see any statement to that effect. Besides Joe has said the Vorlons are physical beings and I was never led to believe anything other than that when I was corresponding with him and Fiona during the compilation of the Babylon 5 Historical Database
B5historyman, thanks for the link confirming a Shadow-Dilgar connection! I had no idea JMS had ever addressed the matter. I am truly hoping to learn more about the Dilgar and their Shadow connections, in whatever form. I’d love to learn more details about many hidden aspects of the Babylon 5 universe, and I’m hoping they will not be kept secret forever.



As for what I paraphrased from the Technomage trilogy, check out book 3, chapter 1, page 7:



The context of the scene is that Kosh is thinking to himself in his quarters aboard Babylon 5, during the episode ‘Interludes and Examinations,’ after he has sent a Vorlon fleet to attack the Shadows directly in Brakiri space. Morden and his three Shadow escorts are coming to kill him, for violating the terms of the Vorlon-Shadow agreement that has governed the conduct of their great proxy wars for eons. Kosh accepts that there is a price to pay for his actions, and he has resolved to pay it.


“The door to his residence slid open, and the enemy entered. They too were creatures of light, yet they preferred a more material form, encasing themselves in jagged carapaces of blackness, adopting outer shapes that reflected the inner truth of their beings.”



I didn’t read the Technomage books umpteen times, just once, a decade ago. But I took notes.



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Old November 8th 17, 12:55   #20
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Re: The Wind Swords

Vorlons and Shadows are beings of light, by virtue of their natural luminescence. They both wear encounter suits but do not look the same out of them.

[COLOR=#0563c1]http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-11744&query=Encounter%20suits[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#0563c1]http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-10395[/COLOR]


Vorlons masquerade as "beings of light" as in higher beings from the cultures they have tampered with.



[COLOR=#0563c1]http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-14860&query=Angelic[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#0563c1]http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-15168&query=Beings%20of%20light[/COLOR]

Vorlons and Shadows are most definitely NOT beings of pure energy. They are physical beings. This is where the confusion arises when people equate beings of energy to beings of light.

[COLOR=#0563c1]http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-10284[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#0563c1]http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-10270[/COLOR]

I've had this discussion so many times, I confuse myself sometimes as I tend to carry a lot of this around in my head ! :-\

Much apologisings for the confoosion (In best Zathras voice)

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