Galactica Season 4 (Spoilers Within)

Who else needs redemption?

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Tom Zerrick? Another interesting choice....

As for Boomer/Athena. Perhaps that is a flaw in the 8 model. Six often referred to the 8's as a "weaker model." Maybe they are more prone to feeling empathy out of emotion (or holding onto a grudge if spurned.)

I would also be interested in the centurions and if they will rebel against the skinjobs. Perhaps that is what brother Cavil means when he says in the preview, "she has no idea what she has done" (paraphrasing.)

Something I've wondered is HOW did the Centurions suddenly decide to make flesh-models? What were they like before they had the safety chip put in place? Were they capable of that kind of technological and biological advances? Or is there another being/entity/person out there who helped them along? Something I've always wondered.

Alluveal said:

Tom Zerrick? Another interesting choice....

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I could also see Starbuck's mom to fitting that category too.

Whatever did happen to Zerrick?

The last we saw of Zarek that I remember was him turning the presidency over to Roslin after everyone fled New Caprica.

Alluveal said:

Tom Zerrick? Another interesting choice....

As for Boomer/Athena. Perhaps that is a flaw in the 8 model. Six often referred to the 8's as a "weaker model." Maybe they are more prone to feeling empathy out of emotion (or holding onto a grudge if spurned.)

I would also be interested in the centurions and if they will rebel against the skinjobs. Perhaps that is what brother Cavil means when he says in the preview, "she has no idea what she has done" (paraphrasing.)

Something I've wondered is HOW did the Centurions suddenly decide to make flesh-models? What were they like before they had the safety chip put in place? Were they capable of that kind of technological and biological advances? Or is there another being/entity/person out there who helped them along? Something I've always wondered.

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You hit the nail on the head. What started the move to skin-jobs? What is the master programmer they keep referring to that programmed them not to think about the final five? They seem to rever/fear it. What decided to make the first hybrid (who would then go on to be thought of by some centurions as god, enough to have them break off from the rest)? Who or what programmed the final five and what is their mission (I don't think it's the same mission as the others)?

In the old series it might have been the Emperious Leader, but we already know that there is no such beastie in this incarnation of BSG. So who or what is the master manipulator of the cylons here? I have my theory. I think it could well be the hybrids themselves. Like a mixture of the precogs from Minority Report and Navigators from Dune, I believe they "see" more than the regular cylons. They're moving things behind the scenes and the cylons themselves just think they mutter nonsense. This is what D'Anna was on to. This is why they thought the first hybrid was god. There's something there anyway. They are definitely prescient...that much is clear.

As for Zarek (I checked on the spelling), he has been gone for a bit, but not as long as you might think and he was just mentioned by Lee. I think he'll be popping up again really soon.

As for Starbuck's mom, I don't know that she needs redemption and I really don't think she's the fifth (again...dead...would be noticed), but there is something about events from the first war that's important. Remember, Kara's mom was marooned on a planet in cylon space for some time and I believe Tigh said he was supposedly marooned as well during the first war. I do recall a very interesting set of mentions about a group of people who were marooned for some time. Alluveal, perhaps you can help me out here? Anyway, I think that event from back then is important.

CE

I don't even remember anything ever mentioned about Starbuck's mom.

You people are making me feel like an inadequate BSG fan. I just wanna see Starbuck punch people and number 6 be gorgeous now.

Not only was Starbuck's mom mentioned, she was shown in an episode. She was pretty much seriously abusive to Kara.

I vaguely recall something about Starbuck's mom, but I'm fuzzy on that. As for Tigh, that is not familiar to me, but that doesn't mean it's not out there in the episodes. Do you remember the context of some of these things (or remember more bits and pieces) so I could possibly reference things on a more micro level?

And yeah, Starbuck's mom was a piece of work. I think we got the first hint of that in "Flesh and Bone" then later in "The Farm," and it could have been opened up more in other eps. I'd need to do more watching, though.

I think you guys are messing with me. Starbuck's mom? Nah, never happened.

Didn't she have some kind of attempted reconciliation when Lee Olben gave her a weird visiony thing on New Caprica?

Yeah, she was in her viper and someone was in her visions with her, or guiding her (or it was a part of her own unconscious.) It was in the form of Leoben, but at the end, she said, "you're not Leoben, are you" and he said, "I never said I was."

Then she was allowed to revisit her mother in a sense, when her mother was dying (though in the past, Kara never returned to say goodbye.) Her mom then told her she was special or meant for something. I need to rewatch that episode (Maelstrom.)

I personally think it was a part of her unconcious (in a Jungian sense) and she embraced that and overcame her fear of death, then went into the maestrom.

Or perhaps there is a character out there who manifests themselves in visions in an entirely different form depending on the character. Perhaps they exist in that form,or perhaps it is by projection.

How many people/cylons have had this kind of vision now?

Is this the last cylon? I don't think so, I think it something/someone else.

I also think that the 13th tribe are somehow involved with the final five. Remember it is a human song that triggers their "sleeper" programming. I don't think we were told how old the cylon race is - i.e. when they were first used by the colonials. Who is to say that the original cylons were made before the events of the known history happened? It would explain why a lot of 13th tribe artefacts have significance to cylons as well.

I think that the original cylon makers foresaw the rise of the cylon race and that the final 5 are somekind of failsafe models... designed to put the cylons in order.

And I still think the 13th tribe merely went home to Earth... rather than founded Earth as a new colony. For one thing... isn't it a bit strange that the colonials actually know the name of Earth when they lost contact with the 13th before they arrived at their destination? The other explanation to this is that there are persons from the 13th tribe covertly monitoring the situation and influencing behind the scenes.

And I still think the 13th tribe merely went home to Earth... rather than founded Earth as a new colony. For one thing... isn't it a bit strange that the colonials actually know the name of Earth when they lost contact with the 13th before they arrived at their destination?

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Well, I think that just tells us that it was called Earth before it became "the lost tribe." I mean, if you look at the similarities in language and other things (such as disease: cancer,) then you have a common thread between the two, though it doesn't do a whole lot for narrowing down the time "window" of when Earth became lost to the 12 colonies.

But, it could also be what you said, that Earth was first in this whole ordeal and spread out from there.

Alluveal said:

Well, I think that just tells us that it was called Earth before it became "the lost tribe." I mean, if you look at the similarities in language and other things (such as disease: cancer,) then you have a common thread between the two, though it doesn't do a whole lot for narrowing down the time "window" of when Earth became lost to the 12 colonies.

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The other interesting thing is that someone mentioned the lost tribe articles discovered, get older as we head in the direction of Earth. If they were dated from an outbound journey to Earth... it would be the other way around.

It's also interesting to note that the cylons have access to the colonial religious knowledge and claim to have a better understanding of what they are actually about. Could this actually mean that cylon servants were present on Kobol and recorded the history. They interpret the killings on Kobol that led to the tribes breaking down into 13 in a totally different manner. Was this some kind of uprising against a ruling class (the death of Athena etc) that caused a civil war... all of this has happened before...

So, regarding tonight's episode...



That was a damn dark episode. For much of the episode, I was starting to wonder if anything significant was actually going to happen because a lot of it seemed like it was more of setting up stuff to come than to actually be important for just this one episode. As I had previously posted, when I saw the previews for this week's episode last week, I thought I had saw quick shots of Tory spacing Cally, and that's sure what we got at the end of this episode. How depressing; I really liked Cally a lot. Damn if Tory's not scary now!! I didn't realize when Adama released Starbuck at the end of last week that he was giving her a big crew like he did; I thought it was going to be only her and Helo. And Lord, she was nuts this week.

It has been argued that one flaw of this show is the near absolute lack of humor -- that the show is all darkness all the time. This episode sure didn't step out of that line tonight. It was dark all the way through.

I really liked Cally a lot.

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I think you'd stand alone on that one. Once she got married, she became shrill and pointless and annoying and nobody likes her.

Women, eh, fellas? Eh? Yeah.

Tory is bad-ass now (and gorgeous, btw), but nothing she does seems to make any sense. The problem is they took a character that was too minor to have been developed, we don't really know anything about her, but now it's supposed to mean something that she's embracing her newfound Cylon-ness? And it's odd that of the four new Cylons, the one we're seeing the most in terms of how to deal with it is her, not major characters like Tigh and the chief. Tigh is handling it all too well. Yeah, I know, he's a bad-ass and so tough, but still.

Anders is embarrassing to watch. I can't stand seeing a man allow himself to get shit on by his woman like that.

Most importantly, to me: Starbuck's post-coitus bit about how her body feels alien, etc. If she's not the final Cylon, we're being set-up for the biggest red-herring on TV.

How bad-ass was it when new-hotness-6 had to say "please" to the centuirion. Cylon civil war!

GKarsEye said:

Most importantly, to me: Starbuck's post-coitus bit about how her body feels alien, etc. If she's not the final Cylon, we're being set-up for the biggest red-herring on TV.

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OK so far first episode of the new season that I really felt that warranted a comment.

I have a thought on this. At least how I'm hoping it gets handled. This series did pay a lot of homages to the original one. One plot point of the original which I thought was kind of cool was that "spaceship of lights" that Starbuck encountered. I think they were nicknamed "guardians of the universe" or something to that effect. They gave you the impression they were angels, and guiding the Galactica and Starbuck.

So far many points of the original series were incorporated into this one. Finding the Pegasus, etc. I'm wondering (or hoping more accurately) that Starbuck encountered them and that they will make an appearance in this final season. That said, maybe they did something to her. Maybe they made her INTO a Cylon to survive whatever she had to do. Who knows. But I'm hoping her story thread winds into that.

But who knows, there may be no plans for that at all, in which case to GKE's point, she really does seem to be set up as a Cylon.

How bad-ass was it when new-hotness-6 had to say "please" to the centuirion. Cylon civil war!

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Yea that was creepy. I'm a little disappointed, to be honest, that they are having the Cylons come apart at the seems like this. I get that the "skinjobs" are less machines and more "human" and as such we are being shown them acting human, but it still feels a bit off to me.

Also I agree about Calle. I liked her early on, but in Season 3 she became really pointless and they didnt do too much with her. Sad twist I guess, but not at all unexpected. I figured as soon as Tori was there she was a dead woman. Hell I figured it when Tori saw the removed grate cover. Even as soon as she saw them talking about them being Cylons, she had to die.

Tori....not sure where she is going. I agree with GKE, she seems to be embracing her Cylon aspects, but not really in any particular reason.

OK some other points of discussion related to the series as a whole:

1) Baltar planned on being the 5th Cylon the entire time? (someone mentioned several sources, but that RDM was thinking of changing this)

This makes no sense. If he was a Cylon, then why did Six need to sleep with him to sabotage the defense system in the first place? HE could have just done it!

2) Are the "Final Five" Cylon models unique? In other words, are there other copies of them around somewhere, or are they just individual units? If killed can they download?

I'm thinking that YES they are unique. It would be too weird and WAY too much of a coincidence to have Tigh have been a Cylon this entire time and get to where he did (for that matter the rest of them too). I think that they are not a model LINE, they are individual models with no duplicate copies.

3) Which came first? The Final Five, or the other 7?

So either 5 individual models were made somehow. Based on cloning, whatever. Once they were proved to work, they could have been the basis for creating the rest of the "skinjob" race and their model lines.

OR

The "skinjob" models came first, and evolved into a better Cylon which the Final Five were. They might be the tip of evolution for the Cylons and as such not possible for them to duplicate which is where I think they may be unique models.

So which is it?

Holllllleeeeeeeee FRACK. I just watched this episode. I was utterly speechless. It was hard enough watching Cally almost ice her and her son, but when Tory took that child and spaced Cally, God, it was just heart-wrenching. I also liked Cally a lot. I think the writers just didn't know exactly what to do with her after she got pregnant and had a baby. But, I still liked her character. Nobody can say, "you FRACKIN' CYLON" with as much venom and hatred as she can.


Tory is scary. She's embracing her cylon status a little too quickly and intimately, I think. First she's crying her eyes out while Baltar is borking her, now she's hitting on Chief and spacing people. She'll be the first to go if they realize a cylon is on board. She'll probably be the first named and dealt with.

How bad-ass was it when new-hotness-6 had to say "please" to the centuirion. Cylon civil war!

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Best part of the entire episode!

I kind of enjoyed the whole Starbuck/Anders thing. That whole "I dare you to make me feel something" was kind of hot. Yeah! GET IT ON! I don't think he's letting her shit on him, I think that he's still a bit lost about who he is and she's already told him that if he was a cylon, she'd put a bullet between his eyes. She's all he's got, I think, besides his cylon compatriots, which he doesn't seem to chummy with.

As for Kara herself, she is off her rocker a bit. I am adament that she's not a cylon. Something else has happened to her. The alien thing in side her is probably some kind of tracking device. =)

I have a thought on this. At least how I'm hoping it gets handled. This series did pay a lot of homages to the original one. One plot point of the original which I thought was kind of cool was that "spaceship of lights" that Starbuck encountered.

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This has been brought up a lot on the BSG boards, the Ship of Lights. Though the episode has been referred to as one of the biggest POS ideas in original BSG history, they could redo it. Moore also stated in some interview, that he'd love to redo that whole concept. So, that could very well be it. That's why I think Starbuck is not a cylon. I think it's something else. Ship of lights has a nice spot in my top ideas/theories.

I'm a little disappointed, to be honest, that they are having the Cylons come apart at the seems like this.

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I am, and then again, I'm not. I'm a bit torn. I wanted to see the 3's resurrected this episode. I hope it happens soon. Can never get enough Lucy Lawless. But, the rift is riveting to say the least, and makes me uncomfortable more than anything. Same way I felt when they fast forwarded on New Caprica and it all felt so disjointed and surreal. But, good things came from that. Perhaps from this as well.

1) Baltar planned on being the 5th Cylon the entire time? (someone mentioned several sources, but that RDM was thinking of changing this)

This makes no sense. If he was a Cylon, then why did Six need to sleep with him to sabotage the defense system in the first place? HE could have just done it!

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If he was (for argument sake,) the other models don't know who the other 5 are--they have either had their programming erased on that level, or they were programmed without that knowledge? Not sure. She wouldn't have recognized him. She didn't recognize Chief, Anders, Tigh or Tory.

2) Are the "Final Five" Cylon models unique? In other words, are there other copies of them around somewhere, or are they just individual units? If killed can they download?

I'm thinking that YES they are unique. It would be too weird and WAY too much of a coincidence to have Tigh have been a Cylon this entire time and get to where he did (for that matter the rest of them too). I think that they are not a model LINE, they are individual models with no duplicate copies.

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I think you are absolutely right. They are unique. Moore suggested they will "redefine what it is to be a cylon." I also think they are w/o copies. I don't imagine they download just like the others. Perhaps they can be revived with consciousness (memory) in tact or something. I can't wait to find out, though.

3) Which came first? The Final Five, or the other 7?

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Well, if we go off model numbers, then 1's were made first, then 2's, etc. Let me repost the list of known cylon numbers:

1. Cavil
2. Leoben
3. D'Anna
4. Simon
5. Doral
6. Six
8. Sharon


7 is out of order. Perhaps the first 8 were the same model, leading me to surmise that #7 can download and exists as the others do. 7, 9, 10, 11, and 12 are the final five. The last four are perhaps the different "type" of models. My guess is that they are Chief, Tigh, Tory and Anders. The one that is yet unrevealed is #7 (which is also a very holy and godly number if I remember correctly!)

Alluveal said:

...She'll be the first to go if they realize a cylon is on board. She'll probably be the first named and dealt with.....

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Yeah, I think Tory will actually end up killed off eventually.

...I am adament that she's not a cylon....

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I agree; I don't think she's a cylon. For her to be the final cylon, Moore would have had to have lied since he said no one in the Last Supper picture was the final one and she's in it. Not that I don't think Moore would be willing to lie, but I just thought I'd bring that previous point from way back when in this thread.

...I wanted to see the 3's resurrected this episode. I hope it happens soon. Can never get enough Lucy Lawless.....

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When she first debuted on the show and was revealed to be a cylon by the end of her first episode, I was a bit disappointed that it was revealed so quickly. But her presence in the show since that first episode was very nice. So, yeah, I too eagerly look forward to her return.