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Chrysalis and Kosh Statement

I believe that WWE 1 & 2 were in S3. That's when Sinclair Stayed on B4 and turned into Valen. Didn't Kosh die in S4? If this is the case then Sinclair didn't know when Kosh would die.

Yeah, I was going to say that too but I'm not 100% certain of the timeline. I'll have to go look at the lurkers' guide.

I want to say a lot more but I'm at work and need to think about this for a while so I'll reply more to the above 11 posts when I get home tonight. My main complaints are that 1) you guys are speculating too much about what Valen would and would not have told the Vorlons. Just because you don't SEE a Vorlon does not mean they are not there or listening in. And 2) Vorlons are psychic. Although it's never been said outright we've seen tons of evidence to substantiate it. So given that, and the fact that they see time in a different way than we do, they could know anything they want.
 
I believe that WWE 1 & 2 were in S3. That's when Sinclair Stayed on B4 and turned into Valen. Didn't Kosh die in S4? If this is the case then Sinclair didn't know when Kosh would die.

Kosh dies in "Interludes And Examinations," the episode *right* before "War Without End" in season three.
 
JoeDM, if I am wrong I am giving you permission to berate me. I believe that WWE 1 & 2 were in S3. That's when Sinclair Stayed on B4 and turned into Valen. Didn't Kosh die in S4? If this is the case then Sinclair didn't know when Kosh would die.

Although Kosh dies in S3 before War Without End, BadKosh and the part of Kosh that stays in Sheridan (the last of Kosh) do die in S4. So you are technically correct. :)
 
I believe that WWE 1 & 2 were in S3. That's when Sinclair Stayed on B4 and turned into Valen. Didn't Kosh die in S4?

Consider yourself, berated!. :D

Kosh died in episode 315, "Interludes and Examinations". "War Without End Part 1" was episode 316. Sheridan's fated journey to Z'ha'dum was in 322, and the Shadow War ended only six episodes into S4.

Watch "In the Beginning" again

Excellent suggestion. Watching it again shows that the Vorlons were aboard the Grey Council's cruiser during the Battle of the Line, but never revealed themselves to anyone but Delenn, and were not in the command center during the fighting. Kosh does nudge Delenn with his line about the truth pointing to itself when she asks him and Ulkesh for some reason to stop the fighting before Earth is destroyed. (Ulkesh, as JMS points out on the commentary track, says nothing. He's prepared to risk Delenn not figuring things out. Kosh isn't. But when Delenn protests that she doesn't understand Kosh's words Ulkesh does volunteer the information that she will understand later.)

So it does seem that the Vorlons know something important is about to happen, and they know that the human race won't be exterminated, but they still only give Delenn a cryptic hint, not an explicit instruction. Given the importantce of this moment to the future (and the past) it seems an odd time for the Vorlons to be dicing with fate. More likely Kosh does exactly what Valen told he had done and Delenn's choice was a genuinely free one

(During the battle she remembers what Kosh told her, and hears the words again in his voice, then picks Sinclair. Some might argue that this is Kosh "sending" to her, but the scene doesn't play that way, and I don't think it is the way JMS would write it. For all the predestination B5, like The Lord of the Rings, always seems to present characters with a genuine choice and always features a notable act of free will every time some "fated" event happens.)

Kosh only knew about his impending death when he agreed to Sheridan's demand to fight the Shadows directly.

Exactly. Kosh knew that the Shadows would exact a price for his violation of the long-standing rules of engagement, and what that price would be. But he only decided to violate those rules after Sheridan shamed him into it. And that's when Sheridan's death on Z'ha'dum becomes inevitable. ("Yeah, I know, if I go to Z'ha'dum I will die." "Yes. Now." The empahsis is Kosh's.) But before that he had no idea that he was going to die, much less when.

Regards,

Joe
 
Hmmmmm......some interesting points, slightly off-topic at the beginning of the thread though. :D

Cheers JoDM, i see your point regarding the fact that JMS had said that before it had aired not giving anything away for that episode. So sorry for making a possible pointless thread, but at least we have all now improved our vocabulary and grammar. :D

On an additional note, i don't like ulkesh. He's just mean.
 
He told Sheridan, that if he (Kosh) had the Vorlons involved in the war directly this early, that he (Kosh) would not be there for Sheridan when Sheridan went to Z'Ha'Dum, didn't he? (at a later conversation than the initial "If you go to Z'Ha'Dum you will die)

Yes, exactly. Previous posts seemed indicate that people thought Kosh knew what would happen to Sheridan when he first came aboard. That is what i'm trying to dispel.

Kosh didn't care or know jack about Sheridan until Sebastian interrogated him. Then Kosh felt that Sheridan was the right man to lead his army (thus saving him at the end of season 2). Only after being pressed to fight the shadows mid season 3 did he really deduce what would happen to himself and Sheridan (thus his assassination, which happened right then, not in season 4)

Of course, given that Kosh had already told Sheridan that he'd die on Z'ha'dum, one has to wonder what good Kosh thinks he would have done if he had been there..

Perhaps by jumping into his brain, Kosh actually did accomplish what he thought he could do to help. That is, despite his warning of not being there, he actually was there to help. This help came in the form of telling Sheridan to jump into the Lorien pit.

Watch "In the Beginning" again. Kosh was at the Battle of the Line. He told Delenn "The truth points to itself". This gave her sufficient information to pick out Sinclair's StarFury and stop the war.

I will re-watch that scene, thank you.

However, that still doesn't explain if/how Kosh knew about Sinclair. How does "the truth point to itself" translate to "pick that specific Starfury over there, not any of the other hundreds."

Vorlons are psychic

:confused:

I'm not sure what you mean. People use the word "psychic" in many different ways. Do you mean he can tell the future? I would disagree. Vorlons are very advanced creatures, but they're just part of the evolutionary chain, they don't live outside of time like God or something.
If you mean "telepathic," maybe they are, but we don't know that.

(During the battle she remembers what Kosh told her, and hears the words again in his voice, then picks Sinclair. Some might argue that this is Kosh "sending" to her, but the scene doesn't play that way, and I don't think it is the way JMS would write it. For all the predestination B5, like The Lord of the Rings, always seems to present characters with a genuine choice and always features a notable act of free will every time some "fated" event happens.)

Agreed.

Even if, hypothetically, Kosh/Ulkesh were to know everything that would happen in detail, that could raise the philosophical argument that comes up in religion: if someone (God) knows our decisions, is it still free will?

Given the implied and stated goals of the Vorlons (obedience!) they wouldn't shy away from just telling people what to do. If they were a truly genuine, well-meaning caretaker of the younger races, you could argue that they're just "guiding" the Minbari and humans and leaving free choice open and such, but they're not, they're stupid greedy assholes.

On an additional note, i don't like ulkesh. He's just mean.

Aw, you're just saying that because he pulled out of Lyta too fast.
(Lord, after all this time I still don't get tired of that joke)
 
Watch "In the Beginning" again. Kosh was at the Battle of the Line. He told Delenn "The truth points to itself". This gave her sufficient information to pick out Sinclair's StarFury and stop the war.

I will re-watch that scene, thank you.

However, that still doesn't explain if/how Kosh knew about Sinclair. How does "the truth point to itself" translate to "pick that specific Starfury over there, not any of the other hundreds."

Delenn picked the StarFury that volunteered by flying towards her.

The logic that translates “truth” into “the one trying to ram you” is something I am not certain about either.
 
The logic that translates “truth” into “the one trying to ram you” is something I am not certain about either.

Maybe that's because "truth" (the noun in Kosh's statement) isn't meant to be associated with an action like "trying to ram you." But "points to itself" is an action that connects quite well with the single fighter that's trying to ram you and practically screaming, "Hey, you in the war cruiser, look at me!". :)

Regards,

Joe
 
Maybe that's because "truth" (the noun in Kosh's statement) isn't meant to be associated with an action like "trying to ram you." But "points to itself" is an action that connects quite well with the single fighter that's trying to ram you and practically screaming, "Hey, you in the war cruiser, look at me

whooooah.... dude
smokin.gif
 
You know truth pointing to itself COULD just simply be the child of Valen, Delenn, pointing at Sinclair's craft and saying "That one.".

In a genetic way his "truth" (being Valen) would be pointing to itself.
 
You know truth pointing to itself COULD just simply be the child of Valen, Delenn, pointing at Sinclair's craft and saying "That one.".

In a genetic way his "truth" (being Valen) would be pointing to itself.

I don't get the "Pointing to itself" thing out of that. If I pointed at my dad I would not be pointing at myself. Much less my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather.
 
Ahhhhhhh, but you didn't write the scene there, old chum. ;) :D

Good writers often intermingle BOTH practical meaning and physical reference in their art.
 

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