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Old January 4th 09, 13:07   #31
crazyhorse
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

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I really don't know where you're coming from with the women stealing men's characters' thing - this is not meant as a snide remark, I reall don't. What cases are you thinking of?
The only one I can immediately think of is Starbuck although I think that was just a crap character more than it being spoiled by a change in sex.Boomers change didn't bother me nearly as much.

I do agree that the Doctor should be a white male though.We know they are coloured Timelords (female ones as well ) and it seems to me that regeneration shouldn't change sex or race.

Now the female clone of the doctor is another matter and I would love to see her meet up with the doctor again or even get a spin off series.
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Old January 4th 09, 22:37   #32
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

No issue with Colour, would have preferred Patterson Joseph to this child they are replacing David Tennant with. The Dr should probably stay male though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/mi...w_doctor.shtml

Watch him say iconic a lot.

Still, at least he is from my part of the world, and almost played for my local team! ...

Ok, so child is a bit harsh, he is 4 years younger than me, but really does not fit my mental image of any Doctor. I'm sure he has screen gravitas though. I just hope it was a decision made on range and talent and not demographic appeal. I want to be proved wrong, and basically agree with everything Chili says (again) ...

EDIT: I just found out he also went to the same University as me (UEA) . All a bit scary.
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Old January 5th 09, 01:31   #33
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Chilli View Post
I really don't know where you're coming from with the women stealing men's characters' thing - this is not meant as a snide remark, I reall don't. What cases are you thinking of?
It's usually more subtle and insidious than stealing the character itself. A good example would be in the worst of the Brosnan Bond offerings (Die Another Day). There was a massive imbalance in the relationship of Bond to Bond girl. Bond was way too reliant on Halle Berry's character Jinx and I saw the film as largely a failed exercise in trying to generate a spin-of where the world saver is a female American. I'm not saying this was the films only flaw... but it's the relevant one to the topic at hand.

But the campaign for a female Doctor, is probably the most open attempt to do something like that... and they can only do it because of the unique format of the way science is portrayed in Doctor Who.

I don't really count Starbuck from BSG because at least that's a reinterpretation (although it is rather lame that they initially made the character all about "outmanning the men").

And then you have to look at the kind of actresses they tip for the part...

Jennifer Saunders and Catherine Zeta-Jones... oh pulllleassseee pull the other one.
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Old January 5th 09, 01:45   #34
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

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Now the female clone of the doctor is another matter and I would love to see her meet up with the doctor again or even get a spin off series.
This I can go with totally.

As for young leaders:

Alexander the Great was younger.

King Arthur was supposedly still a boy when he is portrayed as taking power.

Tutankhmun

Horatio Hornblower was about 26 when he was promoted to Commander and given the HMS Hotspur.
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Old January 5th 09, 02:21   #35
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

I just thought I'd offer one thought to consider:

Do you know why women often want to play these men's roles?

It's because the male characters are almost always far more interesting to act than the female ones (with some notable exceptions, usually what guys deem "chick flicks").

When I was earning my Master's degree, my advisor wisely suggested that I start my paper early. Even though most students crammed it all in one year, I started a semester early. I had been doing the musical comedies they did every Spring semester. This semester one of the plays up for consideration was "Jesus Christ Superstar".

The only female part in the play is shit. So I considered it, then asked the director/conductor if I could try out for Herod... and play Herod as a female, not a male (Queen Herod). He considered it for a few minutes, then got back to me and said "yes, you could try out under that premise". It turned out to be a moot point: we did "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum" where I won the role of Domina. Easy part, but a fun one.

But there are two main characters that appealed to me in JCS: Herod and of course, Judas. Herod was fun, so I wanted to try for that part.

Am I to be shunned for this? Is it really so terrible that I had no desire or intention of trying out for the wimpy Mary Magdalen role?

Anyhow, just food for thought. It turned out the show we did went quite well, and Domina was a small enough part it was doable with my class schedule plus paper.

Just thought I'd mention this, as food for thought I guess.
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Old January 5th 09, 17:10   #36
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

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Originally Posted by Galahad View Post
It's usually more subtle and insidious than stealing the character itself. A good example would be in the worst of the Brosnan Bond offerings (Die Another Day). There was a massive imbalance in the relationship of Bond to Bond girl. Bond was way too reliant on Halle Berry's character Jinx and I saw the film as largely a failed exercise in trying to generate a spin-of where the world saver is a female American. I'm not saying this was the films only flaw... but it's the relevant one to the topic at hand.
I don't really think a Bond flick written by two guys qualifies as an act of radical feminism. Especially when it sucked quite this much. It's not uncommon for (predominantly male) writers to create female characters, attempting to make them "strong", and mostly doing so by writing them either as male-r than the males (BSG), or as emotionless and characterless (Star Trek Voyager). But, this isn't radical feminism either. It's just bad writing.

Feminists, like all other groups of people, can sometimes go over the top and do some silly stuff. I could rant for days about the utterly insane crap perpetrators of so-called "linguistic feminism" are doing to the German language. In fact, I have, and most my girly-power girl friends agree with me on the complete ass-backwardsness of this particular movement. But I really can't see any indications of the persecution of heterosexual white males in the mainstream media.

(Incidentially, the James Bond genre is actually one example of a genre in which a traditional male role was given to a woman, with M. A role in which Judy Dench absolutely kicks ass, in my opinion.)

My main problem with the whole female doctor thing is that it would have been goofy - after ten generations of the doctor being male, and it pretty much being established that the doctor keeps certain characteristics in every regeneration, it would have seemed like a stunt.

Also, I was not impressed with any of the names floating around. Donna!Doctor, I could have lived with, but she was not one of the candidates.
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Old January 5th 09, 17:25   #37
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

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Also, I was not impressed with any of the names floating around. Donna!Doctor, I could have lived with, but she was not one of the candidates.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I did hear her name. I'm actually surprised Donna seems to have been loathed by the Dr. Who fans. In the Runaway Bride she screeched way too much, but, when she became a regular companion and stopped the eternal screeching, I actually enjoyed the portrayal.
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Old January 6th 09, 06:43   #38
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

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My main problem with the whole female doctor thing is that it would have been goofy - after ten generations of the doctor being male, and it pretty much being established that the doctor keeps certain characteristics in every regeneration, it would have seemed like a stunt.
It would have seemed odd, as well as his regenerating into a noteably darker color. Funny how that didn't seem to bother people as much. Regenerating into a female did bother a lot of people. And regenerating with a radically different accent definitely bothered people.

Could it be that after many decades of pushing society for equality, the black community has made the concept somehow more palatable? I find it interesting what we (including myself in some of these cases) just automatically have a distaste for, and what would seem normal. In all honesty, it seems to have more to do with comfort levels than story logic.

In any event, I am apparantly very turned off by the idea of a really, really young Doctor. Of everything, that is what dims my enthusiasm for the new season more than anything. If the Doctor is to be a father figure to his companions, how young will they have to be?

I guess the character will slide more into bigger-and-wise brother figure, as it was already doing with Tenant.
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Old January 6th 09, 07:38   #39
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

I think a colour change would have been easier to deal with - if only because a skin colour change is such a minor change genetically, while a gender change would be much more major. (Also, we've seen female timelords before - and both Romana and Rani seemed quite defined as females; even when Romana tried on various bodies for the regeneration scene, I seem to recall one of them was quite "alien" in appearance and different in skin colour, but definitely female all the same.)

Not to say that a gender change would be impossible - he's an alien, anything can be explained away. But I do think it would be a considerably bigger change in more ways than a simple change in skin colour. It really doesn't have to be "ewww, woman" that has made more people react negatively to that; it's simply that it doesn't seem to follow from what we've seen in the show before.

As for Eleven... the boy seems likeable enough, even though I'm dearly hoping he'll get a haircut (I somehow doubt it - he seems to have it the same way for every role he's played). I watched The Ruby in the Smoke the other day, in which Matt Smith had a semi-major role next to Billie Piper, and he seemed okay there, if a bit annoyingly boy - but that was a couple of years ago and might have been part of the role anyway.

So I'm sort of... going to try and keep an open mind. He's far, far too young for my liking, but as long as this trend won't continue (I do NOT want a 12 year old for the next one!), I'm prepared to see how it works out. My biggest fear isn't so much that he's too young to carry the role off well enough - he's a talented and accomplished actor according to a lot of people who have seen him in more things - but that Moffatt, who has shown some keenness on sexualising the Doctor in his episodes so far, will now have cast a young and somewhat attractive man as the Doctor and will take the romance aspects even further. It's not that I'm strongly against the Doctor having urges and relationships - it's just that most of the other shows out there are doing the romance bit, so it was just refreshing to have a show with different dynamics.
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Old January 6th 09, 22:47   #40
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Re: Doctor Who Christmas Special 2008 (Possible Spoilers)

Although I'd rather not see a Doctor so young, I'll try and keep an open mind too. Conceivably, there could be some interesting plot points made of such a young Dr. having trouble being taken seriously by older characters.

If the Dr. ever does regenerate into a female, I'm sure they'll offer an explanation, and I won't go off in a snit, but I'd rather the Dr. remain male. Gender seems to me to be an innate part of a being, and Time Lords have demonstrated that they definitely have gender differences.
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